A piece like this is what confirms your credibility. While there may be bias, it doesn't prevent a person from giving an honest assessment of a situation. You are just demonstrated that.
Guy was obviously pretty bad off. I'm going to want to think the guy looking at the big picture knew he was done for. Not going to get proper treatment. And this was a mercy kill.
I don't know if that would even stand up as a defence. But man, the disconnect of warfare turned video game is terrifying.
As you said, narrow focus. Was he isolated and beyond reasonable expectation of help? The Russians are notorious for abandoning their wounded so the odds are he would have lain there and suffered, dying eventually. But he was wounded, he wasn't hostile and while arguably capable of defending himself methinks he'd suck at it. Technically then finishing him off while definitely merciful is perhaps not lawful. Distressing viewing but props for making this video and you are so right about the operator. He or she will have to deal with this and while in this case I personally lean more toward mercy killing than intentional war crime, it is a slippery slope. Next time might not be so clear cut and the time after that and...
I think there are two very different contexts at play here: 1) defensibility in a court of law and 2) desirable behavior for troops in a well-ordered military. I think there are enough variables for a lawyer to get a not guilty verdict here. Say, for example, this drone operator had spent all day helping infantry clear Russians out of defensive positions. I think the legal standard would be pretty low.
But as for training drone pilots, do we want them to get addicted to "blowing shit up," including human beings? No. There are indeed long-term negative consequences for drone pilots.
I would argue that the problem is more acute the further away from the action and the safer the pilot is. Drone pilots in Ukraine are very close to the action and can be targeted themselves. They don't go to Chili's after their shift is over; they are being hunted and targeted by the enemy. Many drone pilots in Ukraine are operating right next to infantry or are infantry themselves. So they exist in a tit-for-tat moral system.
Perhaps the real question is, what does it imply when a drone pilot publishes the footage of this kill? In truth, I'm not sure the pilot makes that decision. I assume video postings have to be cleared by some level of opsec custodian. My moral questioning would be directed at that person. Do you think this is an act that we should be proud of, even if it can be defended in court?
You sort of echoed my thought. Why would Ukraine publish this one. Terrible things happen in war but this was one PR should have buried in the do not release vault.
It didn't feel right to aim this comment at anyone in particular. But I wanted to address the often expressed sentiment that Russians deserve whatever they get. As Ryan said, "We need to be held to a higher standard." There are lots of good reasons for this, protection of our own soldiers' mental health, avoiding retaliatory war crimes, maintaining the moral high ground. But for me, personally, it's because my Lord told me it was good.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:43-44,46-48
I acknowledge it is easy for me to say this sitting in front of my computer. I know it is much harder to do. I do hate my enemies. I want Putin dead. I want him to suffer in hell, and he hasn't even killed any of my friends, so how much more must the person operating the drone feel?
But Peace must be the goal. The dying only stops with Peace. Peace could be achieved through killing every Russian, but that's a high cost to Ukraine. More likely, Peace will be achieved by removing the enemy's will to fight. Crimes like this enforce the will to fight and lead us further from the likely Peace. "We must be held to a higher standard."
I will concur with one little edit. Instead of Peace, use Lasting Peace. Additionally, we should not be sanitizing the brutality of war. People are killed in horrific ways. Centuries of culture is wiped away. We’ve made I too clean, too easy for greedy people with their own agendas to simply send the children of others to fight a war from which to slake their greed and desires of power. Sign a paper, ship them off, press some buttons, count the bodies without comprehension, and measure their profits.
Sort of a Patton man. When the war is sanitized there are no heroes, there is no glory; only those left alive and those left dead.
And I’ll tell you what I was prepared to do when I was in the sit (situation) and was considered and weighed considerably should I ever be shot down, 1) Destroy the aircraft and anything sensitive I might have had if at all capable. 2) Given that I would most likely not have any others with me (single seat) I would try to escape and evade. 3) If that was not an option, survive as long as possible 4) if capture was imminent, with no reasonable options, I would ensure I took out as many as I could before they got me. 5) if they still got me, I would resist to my maximum ability and make them work while I found a way to escape.
Mental health issues are inflamed by armchair quarterbacking logical decisions made in combat. No one except the shooter and/or his/her commander knows what all was going on in their heads at the time. Someone made a call. The order was executed. If not authorized, then yes, the shooter should face investigation and possible sanctions. But folks, this is war. The objective is to remove the enemy’s will to fight before the enemy does that to you. I’m not in any way advocating cruelty. Ethics and Morality most definitely have their place.
The target was a soldier. I believe most soldiers understand that if they are going to engage and try to kill their enemy, their enemy is going to try to kill them as well.
War is brutal. People, good people from both sides are unlived. That’s the facts. The criminals are the politicians and senior leaders that perpetuate these wars. It should be that those screaming for war should first dedicate their descendants to the fight and not hide on their porcelain thrones. The Cherokee people had a great idea. The war council consisted of women as they would be the first to suffer when their children were killed in battle.
You are implying that Ukrainians are out there committing war crimes all the time because the Russians are. With respect, I think you do the Ukrainians a disservice. Undoubtedly, there have been Ukrainians who violated the Geneva Conventions, as there have been in every army in every war. But it is the policy of the Ukrainian military to abide by the Geneva Conventions, despite the Russian policy at the top level of not doing so.
It is very important to understand this, because the Ukrainians aspire to join the European Union and NATO. If they cared nothing for international law as you suggest wrongly that they do, they would not be able to achieve their objectives of joining the community of European nations.
Tough piece of work, Ryan. Explain to the troops over and over that a wounded soldier requires care, resources, special handling. A dead soldier is of no immediate concern and ALL the remaining guns can go back to firing.
Ask yourself this. Would you drop the grenade if you were invading another country on their land or would you drop it as a defender protecting your homeland on your land? I know the law doesn’t recognize a difference but I sure do. Thank you for the excellent perspective you give Ryan.
As much as I despise the Russian soldier and their collective ideals.... this was low down and dirty. The man was obviously heavily wounded. No threat at that particular moment. You can’t do this. This is going to be used to great affect inside Russia to create even more hatred towards Ukraine and those of us who are facilitating you fight against the Russians. WE hold ourselves to be better people than this. I have ZERO DOUBT if this continues to happen “accidentally” or otherwise; ALL THE MONEY AND WEAPONS to Ukraine will stop. Do Not fucking do it. Period.
I don’t agree. If I were a AFU infantry man in a foxhole moving toward this position, could this wounded soldier shout out a warning of my approach? He appeared conscious. He was moving. I don’t doubt he was hurt, but was he incapacitated? Anyway. Who am I to judge another man fighting for his country? Anytime an armed man enters my home with mal intent, I believe I have the right to do ANYTHING to eliminate this threat. ANYTHING.
I don't approve of this but I "understand" if the Ukrainians have no compassion left.
Also "This is going to be used to great affect inside Russia to create even more hatred towards Ukraine and those of us who are facilitating", I don't think this will change anything. Russian propaganda is already at work so if they hate the Ukrainians it won't be because of this. Even then the Ukrainians are already targeting inside Russia almost daily. That too will do more than this perhaps.
Well staed Ryan Being a journalist requires that you investigate and report even things that clearly show negative parts of the Ukrainian war Even it makes Ukraine look bad, the truth is the truth! I am all for Ukraine to win, but it must be done to the rules of law that nations follow Thanks Ryan keep up the good work!
A piece like this is what confirms your credibility. While there may be bias, it doesn't prevent a person from giving an honest assessment of a situation. You are just demonstrated that.
Thank you. I am very proud to be a supporter.
A honest analysis, by acknowledging mistakes we improve as a military force.
That was brutal.
Guy was obviously pretty bad off. I'm going to want to think the guy looking at the big picture knew he was done for. Not going to get proper treatment. And this was a mercy kill.
I don't know if that would even stand up as a defence. But man, the disconnect of warfare turned video game is terrifying.
As you said, narrow focus. Was he isolated and beyond reasonable expectation of help? The Russians are notorious for abandoning their wounded so the odds are he would have lain there and suffered, dying eventually. But he was wounded, he wasn't hostile and while arguably capable of defending himself methinks he'd suck at it. Technically then finishing him off while definitely merciful is perhaps not lawful. Distressing viewing but props for making this video and you are so right about the operator. He or she will have to deal with this and while in this case I personally lean more toward mercy killing than intentional war crime, it is a slippery slope. Next time might not be so clear cut and the time after that and...
I think there are two very different contexts at play here: 1) defensibility in a court of law and 2) desirable behavior for troops in a well-ordered military. I think there are enough variables for a lawyer to get a not guilty verdict here. Say, for example, this drone operator had spent all day helping infantry clear Russians out of defensive positions. I think the legal standard would be pretty low.
But as for training drone pilots, do we want them to get addicted to "blowing shit up," including human beings? No. There are indeed long-term negative consequences for drone pilots.
I would argue that the problem is more acute the further away from the action and the safer the pilot is. Drone pilots in Ukraine are very close to the action and can be targeted themselves. They don't go to Chili's after their shift is over; they are being hunted and targeted by the enemy. Many drone pilots in Ukraine are operating right next to infantry or are infantry themselves. So they exist in a tit-for-tat moral system.
Perhaps the real question is, what does it imply when a drone pilot publishes the footage of this kill? In truth, I'm not sure the pilot makes that decision. I assume video postings have to be cleared by some level of opsec custodian. My moral questioning would be directed at that person. Do you think this is an act that we should be proud of, even if it can be defended in court?
You sort of echoed my thought. Why would Ukraine publish this one. Terrible things happen in war but this was one PR should have buried in the do not release vault.
"Do you think this is an act that we should be proud of"
I don't think the Ukrainians even care since they are being invaded.
It didn't feel right to aim this comment at anyone in particular. But I wanted to address the often expressed sentiment that Russians deserve whatever they get. As Ryan said, "We need to be held to a higher standard." There are lots of good reasons for this, protection of our own soldiers' mental health, avoiding retaliatory war crimes, maintaining the moral high ground. But for me, personally, it's because my Lord told me it was good.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:43-44,46-48
I acknowledge it is easy for me to say this sitting in front of my computer. I know it is much harder to do. I do hate my enemies. I want Putin dead. I want him to suffer in hell, and he hasn't even killed any of my friends, so how much more must the person operating the drone feel?
But Peace must be the goal. The dying only stops with Peace. Peace could be achieved through killing every Russian, but that's a high cost to Ukraine. More likely, Peace will be achieved by removing the enemy's will to fight. Crimes like this enforce the will to fight and lead us further from the likely Peace. "We must be held to a higher standard."
I will concur with one little edit. Instead of Peace, use Lasting Peace. Additionally, we should not be sanitizing the brutality of war. People are killed in horrific ways. Centuries of culture is wiped away. We’ve made I too clean, too easy for greedy people with their own agendas to simply send the children of others to fight a war from which to slake their greed and desires of power. Sign a paper, ship them off, press some buttons, count the bodies without comprehension, and measure their profits.
Sort of a Patton man. When the war is sanitized there are no heroes, there is no glory; only those left alive and those left dead.
And I’ll tell you what I was prepared to do when I was in the sit (situation) and was considered and weighed considerably should I ever be shot down, 1) Destroy the aircraft and anything sensitive I might have had if at all capable. 2) Given that I would most likely not have any others with me (single seat) I would try to escape and evade. 3) If that was not an option, survive as long as possible 4) if capture was imminent, with no reasonable options, I would ensure I took out as many as I could before they got me. 5) if they still got me, I would resist to my maximum ability and make them work while I found a way to escape.
Mental health issues are inflamed by armchair quarterbacking logical decisions made in combat. No one except the shooter and/or his/her commander knows what all was going on in their heads at the time. Someone made a call. The order was executed. If not authorized, then yes, the shooter should face investigation and possible sanctions. But folks, this is war. The objective is to remove the enemy’s will to fight before the enemy does that to you. I’m not in any way advocating cruelty. Ethics and Morality most definitely have their place.
The target was a soldier. I believe most soldiers understand that if they are going to engage and try to kill their enemy, their enemy is going to try to kill them as well.
War is brutal. People, good people from both sides are unlived. That’s the facts. The criminals are the politicians and senior leaders that perpetuate these wars. It should be that those screaming for war should first dedicate their descendants to the fight and not hide on their porcelain thrones. The Cherokee people had a great idea. The war council consisted of women as they would be the first to suffer when their children were killed in battle.
It is my understanding that the Russians already commit war crimes. I have a gut feeling this is why the Ukrainians do this.
You are implying that Ukrainians are out there committing war crimes all the time because the Russians are. With respect, I think you do the Ukrainians a disservice. Undoubtedly, there have been Ukrainians who violated the Geneva Conventions, as there have been in every army in every war. But it is the policy of the Ukrainian military to abide by the Geneva Conventions, despite the Russian policy at the top level of not doing so.
It is very important to understand this, because the Ukrainians aspire to join the European Union and NATO. If they cared nothing for international law as you suggest wrongly that they do, they would not be able to achieve their objectives of joining the community of European nations.
Hard to watch. I wanted to see a weapon in his hand, but didn’t.
Good piece.
Exposing war crimes - hope you don't suffer same fate as Assange.
Tough piece of work, Ryan. Explain to the troops over and over that a wounded soldier requires care, resources, special handling. A dead soldier is of no immediate concern and ALL the remaining guns can go back to firing.
If anyone has ever doubted your ability to parse information without bias this video should put their doubts to rest.
Ask yourself this. Would you drop the grenade if you were invading another country on their land or would you drop it as a defender protecting your homeland on your land? I know the law doesn’t recognize a difference but I sure do. Thank you for the excellent perspective you give Ryan.
As much as I despise the Russian soldier and their collective ideals.... this was low down and dirty. The man was obviously heavily wounded. No threat at that particular moment. You can’t do this. This is going to be used to great affect inside Russia to create even more hatred towards Ukraine and those of us who are facilitating you fight against the Russians. WE hold ourselves to be better people than this. I have ZERO DOUBT if this continues to happen “accidentally” or otherwise; ALL THE MONEY AND WEAPONS to Ukraine will stop. Do Not fucking do it. Period.
I don’t agree. If I were a AFU infantry man in a foxhole moving toward this position, could this wounded soldier shout out a warning of my approach? He appeared conscious. He was moving. I don’t doubt he was hurt, but was he incapacitated? Anyway. Who am I to judge another man fighting for his country? Anytime an armed man enters my home with mal intent, I believe I have the right to do ANYTHING to eliminate this threat. ANYTHING.
I don't approve of this but I "understand" if the Ukrainians have no compassion left.
Also "This is going to be used to great affect inside Russia to create even more hatred towards Ukraine and those of us who are facilitating", I don't think this will change anything. Russian propaganda is already at work so if they hate the Ukrainians it won't be because of this. Even then the Ukrainians are already targeting inside Russia almost daily. That too will do more than this perhaps.
Well staed Ryan Being a journalist requires that you investigate and report even things that clearly show negative parts of the Ukrainian war Even it makes Ukraine look bad, the truth is the truth! I am all for Ukraine to win, but it must be done to the rules of law that nations follow Thanks Ryan keep up the good work!
Well said, disturbing to watch.
Given what we know of how the Russians deal with their wounded, it can be speculated that this was an act of compassion.