Yes. And the birth rate in Gaza is ~27 per 1,000, and the US its like 12 per 1,000. The population is well nourished and fruitful so to speak. What they need are jobs and a sustainable economy which Hamas was not interested in providing. I hope by eliminating Hamas as the de facto government now there might be hope for a future for all those people (and babies).
I'm afraid that if Hamas is "eliminated", it will continue as a smaller organization, targeting whatever government replaces it in Gaza, and whomever cooperates with that government, in an attempt to rebuild and to regain influence. Terror: the gift that keeps on giving.
Hamas and its sympathizers have grown by the hundreds of thousands after the barbaric reaction of the deluded and rabid Likud Govt in Israel. Strategically, it's one of the worst errors ever made.
Unfortunately, , a sustainable economy with jobs is not a viable option for the Israeli government. Simply look at what we call the West Bank and East Jerusalem and we see ever increasing extremist, Jewish settlers, terrorising, killing and stealing homes by force. Hundreds of villages and thousands of Palestinian homes have been destroyed, often with covering Support by the IDF. If you look at a map of the area, it’s just like the small townships to the South Africans, try to create during apartheid where black SA’s work in the cities, and then go back to their townships. For decades, all governments including the US, Europe, and the United Nations, have condemned the legal sentiments, but no sanctions or repercussions have ever taken place, on the contrary billions of dollars have been provided to support these actions. Try visiting the West Bank and see how difficult it is to move in their daily lives from one town to another as a Palestinian in their own country. We have been used to a controlled narrative where the occupied have been systematically oppressed by the occupiers and destroyers.
Unfortunately, the blanket destruction of Gazza is not so much interested in locating hostages, or destroying hamas, the long-term aim is to push out all Palestinians from Gazza, throw them to the wind said that the area can become further occupied. It has been stated very clearly and in public by many of the ultra right wing members of the current coalition government. We’re not talking conspiracy theory here, it’s simply a well stated fact which is very rarely publicised in our media.
It’s not difficult to think what mind set that creates for the youth who never knew anything else, especially considering the loss of life.
lol obviously these are not the fighters. Hamas is a political party and the bureaucracy down there. and when Hamas gives you the job you have job security from moving fast
I do not see how an organization that does not abide by the Geneva convention can expect to be treated under such. If you target civilians, you are not a soldier. They are criminals. Freedom fighters do not kill babies or take them hostage.
Actually, Freedom Fighters do all kinds of dreadful things and kill all kinds of people. Just as IDF soldiers would not characterize themselves as "Zionist terrorists" these Hamas guys think they are on a mission from God, part of the "armed struggle". Actually the Israeli's (or Jewish settlers, since this was before the 1948 war) used terrorism against the British after they began to restrict Jewish immigration and the purchase of land. The bombing of the King David Hotel, then the British administrative headquarters, which killed 91 people in 1946, is an example of this.
If the soldiers of Hamas were "freedom fighters" then the People of Palestine would have freedom. Hamas has been running the show ever since they violently threw out the Palestinian authority. When is the last time they allowed an election? Hamas is perfectly happy committing acts of terror against the Palestinian people to stay in power.
I understand your thinking, but what they think may not impact what others think... I feel that is Ryan's point... Bad optics are bad optics...
Now I for one would dismiss the statement made on this post offhand because why would they go to that kind of trouble only to execute them later? And I don't think their Commanders would approve either...
Let me add, I agree with you, but I totally see some IDF representative talking to the press saying 'I'd like to point out these are vile terrorists, not soldiers...', which is both true and beside the point.
I think part of the issue is none of them are wearing uniforms so they can blend right in with everybody else and I may be incorrect, but I think being dressed as civilians really skews the Geneva convention
It is not that much of a stretch for a baby be heading, little girl raping, Lighting elderly people on fire terrorist to scurry into a refugee camp and play it innocent after he drops his empty RPG tube.
Whilst I identify myself as more pro Israel in this war, Israel has done an absolutely terrible job with optics and information dispersion which hamas, as much as I despise them, has done an impressive job considering all the war crimes they commit. It's shocking to me that Israel has done so bad and hamas so well that many are convinced this is a genocide and not a war.
I guess the “mostly” is because the exceptions are the widespread rape and slaughter of civilians and the kidnapping of civilians for use as hostages. Oh, and the pervasive use of civilian infrastructure as launch points for their rockets and as military strongholds.
For those disputing the accusations of widespread rape, from today's NYT:
"A two-month investigation by The New York Times has uncovered painful new details about a pattern of rape, mutilation and extreme brutality used against Israeli women during the attacks by Hamas in early October. Sexual attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appeared to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Witnesses described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim who were left with their legs spread, their clothes torn off and signs of abuse in their genital areas. Hamas has denied accusations that such acts occurred."
I support Ukraine strongly, but every now and then UkrinformTV, a YouTube channel run by the Ukrainian government, which otherwise does great work, will upload a video featuring Russian POW's, and it always disturbs me.
The footage usually entails the POW talking about how "well" they're being treated. I don't doubt that Ukraine manages the prisoners humanely, but I disagree with broadcasting their distinctly captive testimony. The Ukrainian government seems to be targeting Russian soldiers they would prefer surrender instead of fight, which is not unreasonable, but I'm not certain they appreciate how exploitative it comes off regardless.
The images of these Hamas "fighters" in their underwear bothers me much less. I'm just old enough (God help me...) to recall the weekly suicide bombings in the early-2000's. It sucked. And as Ryan states, it was mostly cafes and buses. Every week another 20 innocent people being blown up on their way to work by some psychopath strapped with explosives.
So my distinctly civilian opinion is that stripping down these Hamas "fighters" is a good idea...but I have to agree with Ryan that it's bad optics to broadcast the images. Why give the propagandists such fertile ammunition?
Excellent video essay though, Ryan. If I was president you would be my press secretary, sir. Tragically I don't have the numbers, so it'll just have to stay a dream.
The fundamentalist Sunni wave that has taken hold in Gaza preaches that women must have at least 6 children, do not have “person” status, cannot choose to use birth control (husband will decide). Female Genital Mutilation is growing in popularity. The long standing reverse dowry practice has long encouraged marriage between cousins hence the rate of genetic health issues is far above normal. Whatever positive future that may exist for the people of Gaza does not include a positive future for females.
Come on, Ryan. Even if they still had clothes (either their own put back on or sweats provided by Israel), the nutters claiming these guys are about to be executed would STILL claim that.
Interestingly enough, since Saddam's disappearance, this function was picked up by the Palestinian Authority (PA), albeit in a somewhat modified form. While PA doesn't specifically pay people to become suicide bombers, the families of convicted terrorists who killed (or attempted to kill) Israelis do receive pretty substantial monthly stipends. This has always been a serious point of contention every time Israeli Government attempts to negotiate with PA because these payments create economic incentive structure for new terrorists to emerge.
During the first Gulf War in 1991, the term was phrased "even every private must be able to deliver a soundbite to the (traditional) media". Guess nowadays even every private must learn what social media impact they can have.
I think there is an element in this that you are missing in this and that is humiliation. Treating men this way, stripping them and forcing them to kneel (particularly if there is no clear functional military reason to do that) is humiliating and humiliation is a familiar part of the IDF’s procedures on the West Bank, it is one of the most frequently mentioned sources of resentment by Palestinians civilians about their treatment at check points and searches. Humiliation is another way to dehumanize, to show contempt. I spent a great deal of time on the West Bank as a journalist and I saw this all the time.
The other point I would make, with respect, is to remind you that the IDF is not the American Army and they are operating in a very different physical and psychic environment than our troops did in Iraq, and Afghanistan. They are protecting their home country in a struggle which many consider existential. Soldiers of this age have spent their entire lives receiving cultural signals, in schools, in the general media and especially if they come from conservative or religious homes, that Palestinians are a lessor and dangerous people. There is a kind of institutional bigotry against Palestinian Arabs in the large majority of Israeli society, and this was underlined and emphasized by the terror bombings in cafes and busses during the second Intifada, which you mentioned. In fact, these terror bombings pretty much killed the Peace Now left as a political movement in Israel. So these young soldiers are not just trained differently than US soldiers are, they are carrying fairly strong negative stereotypes about their adversaries, sometimes to the point of killing them. Think about the soldiers of the US 7th Cavalry who perpetrated the Wounded Knee Massacre in what is now South Dakota in 1890.
That was my first take when I saw the images. As a civilian with zero knowledge of military protocol (American or Israeli) my first thought was, "Yeah this is humiliation."
I have to be brutally honest though and admit my next thought was, "This is what they deserve."
All that said, when I reflect with a sober mind, how I feel is that Israel should not broadcast these images. It's clearly bad optics, as you and Ryan point out. And, as much as I don't want to concede, it's also an inhumane way to treat the prisoners.
My personal politics are far left of center but I break with my fellow leftists on the present escalation of this conflict. I believe Hamas must be destroyed, and so- by default- I support the IDF (for now.) I despise these Hamas "fighters" but I believe they must be treated humanely. We have to be better than the monsters we fight.
I guess the overall question is- where is the line between military necessity and blatant humiliation? I remember the Second Intifadah, I remember the weekly suicide bombings, stripping these guys down is entirely reasonable. But why then take the pictures? And even worse why broadcast them globally?
I do wish the IDF would stop making things difficult for itself.
Like everything else in this conflict the fog of war is thick.
Thanks for the thoughtful note. With respect, I caution you if you find yourself thinking “They had it coming”. This whole issue is deeply complex, with a history that goes back to the creation Zionism in the 1890’s and includes a whole pile of wars, the displacement of about 700,000 Palestinians and many dead innocent people on both sides. The occupation of the West Bank, which has gone on for more than 50 years, allows for no civil rights (as we understand them) for the Palestinians, and a whole litany of abuse and suffering. This is to say, the Palestinians are entitled to resent the creation of the state of Israel and all that it has cost them. And all Palestinians are not terrorists, though I am sure many could be considered what is sometimes called “Terrorist Cheerleaders”.
I am surprised that more people haven’t looked at the October 7th atrocities as “Intifada number 3”, or the chickens coming home to roost, again. This thought in no way condones or excuses the inhuman horror those Hamas terrorists perpetrated on the unarmed civilians and unarmed soldiers during their attack. But each explosion of violence, Intifada one, with stones, Intifada two, with suicide bombs, and Oct 7th (Intifada three) with thousands of organized fighters, and a complex air-land-sea operation, shows a terrifying escalation of what Palestinians think of as armed resistance. And this is something you can’t get rid of by trying to destroy Hamas. You can’t kill them all. As Lloyd Austin suggested, all this bombing is only going to drive more people into the arms of Hamas or whoever is waiting in line behind them.
The lack of common sense is astonishing as to why they strip them to their underwear. COVID also showed me such lack of common sense when I saw people driving in a car alone wearing a mask or playing tennis wearing a mask, common sense is in short order
I agree about giving them their clothes back, but it’s not clear to me how long they were held in this way. Hours? Days?
Given the difficulty of conducting a truly exhaustive search of the clothing, I could see doing some initial handling of prisoners this way and then providing them with garb denoting them as prisoners.
Sure, it would be better if after the search, the prisoner is allow to get dress again . But as you said, we are in our warm homes and those guys are outside shooting and bein shooted dayly
I seriously disagree - you don't recruit anyone with these photos and even if you did, do you really need them to be real?
We've seen those DIPs ever since there where photos (and definitely after we got the internet). You get ones from pretty much everywhere claiming it's poor murdered whoever you want "revenge" for. That's not for getting recruits, that's for "humanitarian relief" donations.
Recruits don't become fighters by being shown a dirty picture of naked fat men. They become fighters by being promised respect, purpose and most importantly, a paycheck.
The photo of Hamas terrorists show many overweight men. Clearly there is no food shortage in the tunnels.
Yes. And the birth rate in Gaza is ~27 per 1,000, and the US its like 12 per 1,000. The population is well nourished and fruitful so to speak. What they need are jobs and a sustainable economy which Hamas was not interested in providing. I hope by eliminating Hamas as the de facto government now there might be hope for a future for all those people (and babies).
I'm afraid that if Hamas is "eliminated", it will continue as a smaller organization, targeting whatever government replaces it in Gaza, and whomever cooperates with that government, in an attempt to rebuild and to regain influence. Terror: the gift that keeps on giving.
Hamas and its sympathizers have grown by the hundreds of thousands after the barbaric reaction of the deluded and rabid Likud Govt in Israel. Strategically, it's one of the worst errors ever made.
Unfortunately, , a sustainable economy with jobs is not a viable option for the Israeli government. Simply look at what we call the West Bank and East Jerusalem and we see ever increasing extremist, Jewish settlers, terrorising, killing and stealing homes by force. Hundreds of villages and thousands of Palestinian homes have been destroyed, often with covering Support by the IDF. If you look at a map of the area, it’s just like the small townships to the South Africans, try to create during apartheid where black SA’s work in the cities, and then go back to their townships. For decades, all governments including the US, Europe, and the United Nations, have condemned the legal sentiments, but no sanctions or repercussions have ever taken place, on the contrary billions of dollars have been provided to support these actions. Try visiting the West Bank and see how difficult it is to move in their daily lives from one town to another as a Palestinian in their own country. We have been used to a controlled narrative where the occupied have been systematically oppressed by the occupiers and destroyers.
Unfortunately, the blanket destruction of Gazza is not so much interested in locating hostages, or destroying hamas, the long-term aim is to push out all Palestinians from Gazza, throw them to the wind said that the area can become further occupied. It has been stated very clearly and in public by many of the ultra right wing members of the current coalition government. We’re not talking conspiracy theory here, it’s simply a well stated fact which is very rarely publicised in our media.
It’s not difficult to think what mind set that creates for the youth who never knew anything else, especially considering the loss of life.
lol obviously these are not the fighters. Hamas is a political party and the bureaucracy down there. and when Hamas gives you the job you have job security from moving fast
I do not see how an organization that does not abide by the Geneva convention can expect to be treated under such. If you target civilians, you are not a soldier. They are criminals. Freedom fighters do not kill babies or take them hostage.
Actually, Freedom Fighters do all kinds of dreadful things and kill all kinds of people. Just as IDF soldiers would not characterize themselves as "Zionist terrorists" these Hamas guys think they are on a mission from God, part of the "armed struggle". Actually the Israeli's (or Jewish settlers, since this was before the 1948 war) used terrorism against the British after they began to restrict Jewish immigration and the purchase of land. The bombing of the King David Hotel, then the British administrative headquarters, which killed 91 people in 1946, is an example of this.
If the soldiers of Hamas were "freedom fighters" then the People of Palestine would have freedom. Hamas has been running the show ever since they violently threw out the Palestinian authority. When is the last time they allowed an election? Hamas is perfectly happy committing acts of terror against the Palestinian people to stay in power.
I though that the IDF considers these people 'terrorists', not enemy combatants, so various conventions about treatment of prisoners do not apply.
I understand your thinking, but what they think may not impact what others think... I feel that is Ryan's point... Bad optics are bad optics...
Now I for one would dismiss the statement made on this post offhand because why would they go to that kind of trouble only to execute them later? And I don't think their Commanders would approve either...
Let me add, I agree with you, but I totally see some IDF representative talking to the press saying 'I'd like to point out these are vile terrorists, not soldiers...', which is both true and beside the point.
Public curiosity violation was done to the kidnapped Israelis and bodies that were displayed in the street 😞
I think part of the issue is none of them are wearing uniforms so they can blend right in with everybody else and I may be incorrect, but I think being dressed as civilians really skews the Geneva convention
It is not that much of a stretch for a baby be heading, little girl raping, Lighting elderly people on fire terrorist to scurry into a refugee camp and play it innocent after he drops his empty RPG tube.
Whilst I identify myself as more pro Israel in this war, Israel has done an absolutely terrible job with optics and information dispersion which hamas, as much as I despise them, has done an impressive job considering all the war crimes they commit. It's shocking to me that Israel has done so bad and hamas so well that many are convinced this is a genocide and not a war.
Hamas are “using mostly decent tactics”?
I guess the “mostly” is because the exceptions are the widespread rape and slaughter of civilians and the kidnapping of civilians for use as hostages. Oh, and the pervasive use of civilian infrastructure as launch points for their rockets and as military strongholds.
For those disputing the accusations of widespread rape, from today's NYT:
"A two-month investigation by The New York Times has uncovered painful new details about a pattern of rape, mutilation and extreme brutality used against Israeli women during the attacks by Hamas in early October. Sexual attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appeared to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Witnesses described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim who were left with their legs spread, their clothes torn off and signs of abuse in their genital areas. Hamas has denied accusations that such acts occurred."
I support Ukraine strongly, but every now and then UkrinformTV, a YouTube channel run by the Ukrainian government, which otherwise does great work, will upload a video featuring Russian POW's, and it always disturbs me.
The footage usually entails the POW talking about how "well" they're being treated. I don't doubt that Ukraine manages the prisoners humanely, but I disagree with broadcasting their distinctly captive testimony. The Ukrainian government seems to be targeting Russian soldiers they would prefer surrender instead of fight, which is not unreasonable, but I'm not certain they appreciate how exploitative it comes off regardless.
The images of these Hamas "fighters" in their underwear bothers me much less. I'm just old enough (God help me...) to recall the weekly suicide bombings in the early-2000's. It sucked. And as Ryan states, it was mostly cafes and buses. Every week another 20 innocent people being blown up on their way to work by some psychopath strapped with explosives.
So my distinctly civilian opinion is that stripping down these Hamas "fighters" is a good idea...but I have to agree with Ryan that it's bad optics to broadcast the images. Why give the propagandists such fertile ammunition?
Excellent video essay though, Ryan. If I was president you would be my press secretary, sir. Tragically I don't have the numbers, so it'll just have to stay a dream.
The fundamentalist Sunni wave that has taken hold in Gaza preaches that women must have at least 6 children, do not have “person” status, cannot choose to use birth control (husband will decide). Female Genital Mutilation is growing in popularity. The long standing reverse dowry practice has long encouraged marriage between cousins hence the rate of genetic health issues is far above normal. Whatever positive future that may exist for the people of Gaza does not include a positive future for females.
Come on, Ryan. Even if they still had clothes (either their own put back on or sweats provided by Israel), the nutters claiming these guys are about to be executed would STILL claim that.
I did not know that re: Saddam paying off suicide bombers for their life's work (literally).
Interestingly enough, since Saddam's disappearance, this function was picked up by the Palestinian Authority (PA), albeit in a somewhat modified form. While PA doesn't specifically pay people to become suicide bombers, the families of convicted terrorists who killed (or attempted to kill) Israelis do receive pretty substantial monthly stipends. This has always been a serious point of contention every time Israeli Government attempts to negotiate with PA because these payments create economic incentive structure for new terrorists to emerge.
During the first Gulf War in 1991, the term was phrased "even every private must be able to deliver a soundbite to the (traditional) media". Guess nowadays even every private must learn what social media impact they can have.
I think there is an element in this that you are missing in this and that is humiliation. Treating men this way, stripping them and forcing them to kneel (particularly if there is no clear functional military reason to do that) is humiliating and humiliation is a familiar part of the IDF’s procedures on the West Bank, it is one of the most frequently mentioned sources of resentment by Palestinians civilians about their treatment at check points and searches. Humiliation is another way to dehumanize, to show contempt. I spent a great deal of time on the West Bank as a journalist and I saw this all the time.
The other point I would make, with respect, is to remind you that the IDF is not the American Army and they are operating in a very different physical and psychic environment than our troops did in Iraq, and Afghanistan. They are protecting their home country in a struggle which many consider existential. Soldiers of this age have spent their entire lives receiving cultural signals, in schools, in the general media and especially if they come from conservative or religious homes, that Palestinians are a lessor and dangerous people. There is a kind of institutional bigotry against Palestinian Arabs in the large majority of Israeli society, and this was underlined and emphasized by the terror bombings in cafes and busses during the second Intifada, which you mentioned. In fact, these terror bombings pretty much killed the Peace Now left as a political movement in Israel. So these young soldiers are not just trained differently than US soldiers are, they are carrying fairly strong negative stereotypes about their adversaries, sometimes to the point of killing them. Think about the soldiers of the US 7th Cavalry who perpetrated the Wounded Knee Massacre in what is now South Dakota in 1890.
That was my first take when I saw the images. As a civilian with zero knowledge of military protocol (American or Israeli) my first thought was, "Yeah this is humiliation."
I have to be brutally honest though and admit my next thought was, "This is what they deserve."
All that said, when I reflect with a sober mind, how I feel is that Israel should not broadcast these images. It's clearly bad optics, as you and Ryan point out. And, as much as I don't want to concede, it's also an inhumane way to treat the prisoners.
My personal politics are far left of center but I break with my fellow leftists on the present escalation of this conflict. I believe Hamas must be destroyed, and so- by default- I support the IDF (for now.) I despise these Hamas "fighters" but I believe they must be treated humanely. We have to be better than the monsters we fight.
I guess the overall question is- where is the line between military necessity and blatant humiliation? I remember the Second Intifadah, I remember the weekly suicide bombings, stripping these guys down is entirely reasonable. But why then take the pictures? And even worse why broadcast them globally?
I do wish the IDF would stop making things difficult for itself.
Like everything else in this conflict the fog of war is thick.
Thanks for the thoughtful note. With respect, I caution you if you find yourself thinking “They had it coming”. This whole issue is deeply complex, with a history that goes back to the creation Zionism in the 1890’s and includes a whole pile of wars, the displacement of about 700,000 Palestinians and many dead innocent people on both sides. The occupation of the West Bank, which has gone on for more than 50 years, allows for no civil rights (as we understand them) for the Palestinians, and a whole litany of abuse and suffering. This is to say, the Palestinians are entitled to resent the creation of the state of Israel and all that it has cost them. And all Palestinians are not terrorists, though I am sure many could be considered what is sometimes called “Terrorist Cheerleaders”.
I am surprised that more people haven’t looked at the October 7th atrocities as “Intifada number 3”, or the chickens coming home to roost, again. This thought in no way condones or excuses the inhuman horror those Hamas terrorists perpetrated on the unarmed civilians and unarmed soldiers during their attack. But each explosion of violence, Intifada one, with stones, Intifada two, with suicide bombs, and Oct 7th (Intifada three) with thousands of organized fighters, and a complex air-land-sea operation, shows a terrifying escalation of what Palestinians think of as armed resistance. And this is something you can’t get rid of by trying to destroy Hamas. You can’t kill them all. As Lloyd Austin suggested, all this bombing is only going to drive more people into the arms of Hamas or whoever is waiting in line behind them.
Thanks again for responding to my post.
I was hoping you would address the preposterous assertion that these men were subsequently executed in front of their families.
The lack of common sense is astonishing as to why they strip them to their underwear. COVID also showed me such lack of common sense when I saw people driving in a car alone wearing a mask or playing tennis wearing a mask, common sense is in short order
I agree about giving them their clothes back, but it’s not clear to me how long they were held in this way. Hours? Days?
Given the difficulty of conducting a truly exhaustive search of the clothing, I could see doing some initial handling of prisoners this way and then providing them with garb denoting them as prisoners.
Sure, it would be better if after the search, the prisoner is allow to get dress again . But as you said, we are in our warm homes and those guys are outside shooting and bein shooted dayly
I seriously disagree - you don't recruit anyone with these photos and even if you did, do you really need them to be real?
We've seen those DIPs ever since there where photos (and definitely after we got the internet). You get ones from pretty much everywhere claiming it's poor murdered whoever you want "revenge" for. That's not for getting recruits, that's for "humanitarian relief" donations.
Recruits don't become fighters by being shown a dirty picture of naked fat men. They become fighters by being promised respect, purpose and most importantly, a paycheck.