Whenever I see videos like this I think of how self-defeating this is. Every Russian that sees this is going to fight that much harder because they know that they can still be killed if they surrender. As more and more of these types of videos pop up it's going to be much harder to get them to give in.
Ryan didn't talk about one of the bigger complications here: the soldier was trying to surrender behind enemy lines - there was no practical way to take him prisoner. Ukrainians would have had to fight through other Russians to get to him and by then he could have been holding a rifle again. As Ryan said - wounded is not incapacitated.
The thing we don’t know here is how far the drone was from the fighting line and whether there was a reasonable chance of the Russian soldier making it to the Ukraine side. If not, it isn’t really a potential surrender.
I disagree with you completely. Even if the Russian soldier is in MOSCOW,.. they are still a potential for surrender.... just like the Ukrainian Intelligence operation that allowed a Russian pilot to surrender with his aircraft. This kind of video(or action) by the Ukrainian drone operator will be a total MORAL negative for Ukraine in the minds of every decent foreign supporter of Ukraine, if it is not addressed properly. To remove the Moscow-invader from Ukraine,... Ukraine's military, and government do not have the luxury of behaving callously & cruelly in such situations,,.... if they want to win the moral-persuasion 'war'. God Bless Ukraine!
Another consideration for maintaining the best standards when it comes to criminal acts is the president that is set by Ukraine. If Russian soldiers see Ukraine in the light of murders then they will treat them as such. It is a race to the bottom and will impact Ukrainian soldiers when it is their turn to be shown some mercy.
I am sorry and worried. As the war continues and more and more Russian war crimes come to light, I see the Ukrainians getting angrier and angrier. This is completely understandable but it is important to understand that by showing mercy, compassion and decency you are saving yourself. Thank you. It is easy to hate the Russians- even from the safety of my living room so I admire any Ukrainian who manages to not give in to it. I am not sure that I could.
They do, but it's very random. They kill by sending hundreds of metal fragments in all directions. Those fragments are pretty small and don't have a lot of energy, so they don't actually cause that much harm unless they hit something vital.
A soldier lying on the ground is unlikely to be hit by many fragments, and even less likely to be dealt a killing blow. Grenades are designed to maim and disable more than actually kill.
Russia has a long tradition of invading its neighbors and colonizing the conquered territory.
It then sends the fighting age men of the new colony off to be killed in the next invasion, while replacing him in his homeland with ethnic Russians.
This geopolitical strategy is aimed at changing the demographic of the lands surrounding Russia to making them predominantly Russian.
In this respect, a large number of the "Russians" fighting for Russia in Afghanistan were Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Poles. So the Russians were not too upset at the high attrition rate amongst Russian forces.
We are seeing the same process in Ukraine.
The Russians are conscripting their ethnic minorities and feeding them into the Ukrainian meat grinder; they don't care how many die.
Ryan, with the intro of drone warfare as it is happening in Ukraine, I think the rules have to be changed on how someone surrenders. I feel as you do, that the soldier was clearly trying to surrender. Keep up the great videos, you are spot on and informative! Thank you!
I will point out that many US soldiers were in Vietnam because a president/country sent them there often against their will. To the vietnamese they were invaders. The Russian military is even worse in that regard. Who is right? Who is wrong? Maybe we need to go back to trial by combat, leaders against leaders.
Or as Major General Smedley D. Butler said in his 'War Is A Racket' book; what if the people who decided if we go to war were the mothers of the soldiers and the politicians and CEOs of industry were all paid the same pay a private soldier gets for the duration of the hostilities? Wars would be few and very short.
WRONG,.... ther ARE 'rules' of war,.. and if you break them, there could be a devastating consequence--- both now, and in the future when the war is over. have you heard of Nuremburg?
Of course there are rules of war. However when ammo is flying around you with your potential name on it, you aren’t thinking about the rules of engagement. You are thinking about kill him or he will kill me.
Apparently you haven’t experienced combat as I have. If you were ever in combat and an enemy is attempting to kill you do you start thinking about the rules of engagement or more importantly what you must do to survive? I can guarantee with certainty the other guy isn’t worried about the rules even assuming he even knew the rules. That’s the real world and not some wishful thinking.
You've completely missed the point. The Russian soldier wasn't going to kill the drone operator. He wasn't trying to kill the drone operator. There was no "heat of the moment" where the operator thought that he was going to be killed from the Mobik that was being bombed.
On the other hand, I don't think he was trying to surrender. I think he was just trying to convince the operator to stop dropping grenades on him. He was a bit farther back from the point of contact and surrendering would have been nigh on impossible without being shot by his own side. Of course this is just conjecture on my part and obviously on your part. Neither of us were there, but I had the pleasure of fighting with the Ukrainians for the first month and a half of the war. The Russians have no concept of showing mercy to those that surrender. If you're lucky they won't torture you then kill you, they'll just torture you.
As Ryan pointed out it seems there was more than 1 drone involved here...
I've yet to see a drone with different warheads mixed together... Not to say it cannot or does not occur... I've just never seen it... Obviously the drone operator/s could not accept someone's surrender, but they could have simply stopped attacking him... But considering that this soldier could also have been saved by his fellow soldiers after letting him go and then turned around and reentered the fight after being treated is also a consideration... Considering Putin's attitude towards his soldiers he could easily have been forced back into combat even if he didn't desire to be...
Also, considering the probability that there was more than 1 drone, the 1st drone operator could have chosen to let him go, only to have his commander demand someone go back and finish him off... There are too many unknowns here to say anything for certain...
As a combat soldier myself I don't get why you keep reviewing these types off videos, this is the second one in as many weeks is there a point to this? see if you can find some footage off Ukrainian civilian dead ie children, women so we get some balance.
I might have said the same thing before watching the post - just pious handwringing from a comfortable distance, aimed at the good guys. Until I listened to the bit about what failing in the obligations of humanity can do to the good guys and their mental health and their societies. That was the first time that particular penny had dropped for me.
I think the Ukrainian drone should have moved on, and looked for another target. Once you wound the guy, it's kinda - sorta a waste of ordinance. Move on and attack another target.
Never harm someone who wants to surrender. The next guy along will say, "Why surrender? They'll just kill me anyhow." That isn't the response you want.
It also helps feed the enemy's propaganda machine. See how monstrous the enemy is? They kill surrendered/wounded soldiers.
Man is already wounded. It takes people to evac a wounded soldier. Then he consumes medical resources. He's now a liability instead of an asset. Trying to kill him is a waste of grenades better directed at healthy soldiers.
We are quick to apply these rules to individual soldiers, but slow to apply them to politicians. The Taliban, in 2002, attempted to surrender to coalition forces. The U.S. refused to accept their surrender and kept going after them.
Two wrongs never make a right and despite the war crimes committed by the Russians (Bucha et al) tit for tat has it's consequences. As others have already pointed out, this sets a precedent that undermines the official efforts to get Russians to surrender (I Want To Live). War is war and the objective of the infantry is to "kill the enemy; to seize and hold ground in all terrains and weather", or at least it was when I was in (1977-87). War is killing but, as Ryan points out, the 'rules' are there for good reason and one does wonder if the drone operator will have more than his or her share of nightmares because of these actions. Keep in mind a wounded soldier can return to the fight and kill more of your mates but, were you the one lying wounded and alone would you not want a little mercy?
Whenever I see videos like this I think of how self-defeating this is. Every Russian that sees this is going to fight that much harder because they know that they can still be killed if they surrender. As more and more of these types of videos pop up it's going to be much harder to get them to give in.
Ryan didn't talk about one of the bigger complications here: the soldier was trying to surrender behind enemy lines - there was no practical way to take him prisoner. Ukrainians would have had to fight through other Russians to get to him and by then he could have been holding a rifle again. As Ryan said - wounded is not incapacitated.
Russians already often believe that POWs get tortured and castrated.
The thing we don’t know here is how far the drone was from the fighting line and whether there was a reasonable chance of the Russian soldier making it to the Ukraine side. If not, it isn’t really a potential surrender.
I disagree with you completely. Even if the Russian soldier is in MOSCOW,.. they are still a potential for surrender.... just like the Ukrainian Intelligence operation that allowed a Russian pilot to surrender with his aircraft. This kind of video(or action) by the Ukrainian drone operator will be a total MORAL negative for Ukraine in the minds of every decent foreign supporter of Ukraine, if it is not addressed properly. To remove the Moscow-invader from Ukraine,... Ukraine's military, and government do not have the luxury of behaving callously & cruelly in such situations,,.... if they want to win the moral-persuasion 'war'. God Bless Ukraine!
Another consideration for maintaining the best standards when it comes to criminal acts is the president that is set by Ukraine. If Russian soldiers see Ukraine in the light of murders then they will treat them as such. It is a race to the bottom and will impact Ukrainian soldiers when it is their turn to be shown some mercy.
Bucha
I am sorry and worried. As the war continues and more and more Russian war crimes come to light, I see the Ukrainians getting angrier and angrier. This is completely understandable but it is important to understand that by showing mercy, compassion and decency you are saving yourself. Thank you. It is easy to hate the Russians- even from the safety of my living room so I admire any Ukrainian who manages to not give in to it. I am not sure that I could.
Morality aside, I thought that hand grenades had a kill radius of more than fifteen inches?
They do, but it's very random. They kill by sending hundreds of metal fragments in all directions. Those fragments are pretty small and don't have a lot of energy, so they don't actually cause that much harm unless they hit something vital.
A soldier lying on the ground is unlikely to be hit by many fragments, and even less likely to be dealt a killing blow. Grenades are designed to maim and disable more than actually kill.
Russia has a long tradition of invading its neighbors and colonizing the conquered territory.
It then sends the fighting age men of the new colony off to be killed in the next invasion, while replacing him in his homeland with ethnic Russians.
This geopolitical strategy is aimed at changing the demographic of the lands surrounding Russia to making them predominantly Russian.
In this respect, a large number of the "Russians" fighting for Russia in Afghanistan were Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Poles. So the Russians were not too upset at the high attrition rate amongst Russian forces.
We are seeing the same process in Ukraine.
The Russians are conscripting their ethnic minorities and feeding them into the Ukrainian meat grinder; they don't care how many die.
Ryan, with the intro of drone warfare as it is happening in Ukraine, I think the rules have to be changed on how someone surrenders. I feel as you do, that the soldier was clearly trying to surrender. Keep up the great videos, you are spot on and informative! Thank you!
I will point out that many US soldiers were in Vietnam because a president/country sent them there often against their will. To the vietnamese they were invaders. The Russian military is even worse in that regard. Who is right? Who is wrong? Maybe we need to go back to trial by combat, leaders against leaders.
Or as Major General Smedley D. Butler said in his 'War Is A Racket' book; what if the people who decided if we go to war were the mothers of the soldiers and the politicians and CEOs of industry were all paid the same pay a private soldier gets for the duration of the hostilities? Wars would be few and very short.
Why is there any concern about the rules of engagement for an enemy out to kill you?
I doubt the Russian is concerned about the rules of engagement. It’s kill or be killed.
War is not niceties of rules. End of story.
WRONG,.... ther ARE 'rules' of war,.. and if you break them, there could be a devastating consequence--- both now, and in the future when the war is over. have you heard of Nuremburg?
Boyd
Of course there are rules of war. However when ammo is flying around you with your potential name on it, you aren’t thinking about the rules of engagement. You are thinking about kill him or he will kill me.
Apparently you haven’t experienced combat as I have. If you were ever in combat and an enemy is attempting to kill you do you start thinking about the rules of engagement or more importantly what you must do to survive? I can guarantee with certainty the other guy isn’t worried about the rules even assuming he even knew the rules. That’s the real world and not some wishful thinking.
RXMAN
You've completely missed the point. The Russian soldier wasn't going to kill the drone operator. He wasn't trying to kill the drone operator. There was no "heat of the moment" where the operator thought that he was going to be killed from the Mobik that was being bombed.
On the other hand, I don't think he was trying to surrender. I think he was just trying to convince the operator to stop dropping grenades on him. He was a bit farther back from the point of contact and surrendering would have been nigh on impossible without being shot by his own side. Of course this is just conjecture on my part and obviously on your part. Neither of us were there, but I had the pleasure of fighting with the Ukrainians for the first month and a half of the war. The Russians have no concept of showing mercy to those that surrender. If you're lucky they won't torture you then kill you, they'll just torture you.
Boyd, have you been in combat? I have. It ain’t fun, games or rules. It’s survival or not and you do whatever it takes to stay alive.
As Ryan pointed out it seems there was more than 1 drone involved here...
I've yet to see a drone with different warheads mixed together... Not to say it cannot or does not occur... I've just never seen it... Obviously the drone operator/s could not accept someone's surrender, but they could have simply stopped attacking him... But considering that this soldier could also have been saved by his fellow soldiers after letting him go and then turned around and reentered the fight after being treated is also a consideration... Considering Putin's attitude towards his soldiers he could easily have been forced back into combat even if he didn't desire to be...
Also, considering the probability that there was more than 1 drone, the 1st drone operator could have chosen to let him go, only to have his commander demand someone go back and finish him off... There are too many unknowns here to say anything for certain...
Ron
As a combat soldier myself I don't get why you keep reviewing these types off videos, this is the second one in as many weeks is there a point to this? see if you can find some footage off Ukrainian civilian dead ie children, women so we get some balance.
I might have said the same thing before watching the post - just pious handwringing from a comfortable distance, aimed at the good guys. Until I listened to the bit about what failing in the obligations of humanity can do to the good guys and their mental health and their societies. That was the first time that particular penny had dropped for me.
I think the Ukrainian drone should have moved on, and looked for another target. Once you wound the guy, it's kinda - sorta a waste of ordinance. Move on and attack another target.
Never harm someone who wants to surrender. The next guy along will say, "Why surrender? They'll just kill me anyhow." That isn't the response you want.
It also helps feed the enemy's propaganda machine. See how monstrous the enemy is? They kill surrendered/wounded soldiers.
Man is already wounded. It takes people to evac a wounded soldier. Then he consumes medical resources. He's now a liability instead of an asset. Trying to kill him is a waste of grenades better directed at healthy soldiers.
Stupid stupid stupid.
We are quick to apply these rules to individual soldiers, but slow to apply them to politicians. The Taliban, in 2002, attempted to surrender to coalition forces. The U.S. refused to accept their surrender and kept going after them.
Excellent work. I appreciate your concern for the ongoing ramifications for the future results of this issue
Two wrongs never make a right and despite the war crimes committed by the Russians (Bucha et al) tit for tat has it's consequences. As others have already pointed out, this sets a precedent that undermines the official efforts to get Russians to surrender (I Want To Live). War is war and the objective of the infantry is to "kill the enemy; to seize and hold ground in all terrains and weather", or at least it was when I was in (1977-87). War is killing but, as Ryan points out, the 'rules' are there for good reason and one does wonder if the drone operator will have more than his or her share of nightmares because of these actions. Keep in mind a wounded soldier can return to the fight and kill more of your mates but, were you the one lying wounded and alone would you not want a little mercy?