Thank you for making this video Ryan, actually I was thinking how useful it would be if you analyzed this video just a few days ago.
Being Turkish myself, I would like understand what's happening in my country with rational analysis.
For additional context I saw this video years ago and there was audio also. The soldiers were speaking in Turkish and their movement seemed to match the speech. However, it was too low quality to make sure if the lips actually synced up.
In the audio portion of the video I remember one saying 'only send this video through infrared to each other, and don't share it anywhere else'.
Judging by the framerate (although the compression as well as some sort of frame generation to enhance the video may have occurred during upload/reupload process) and how washed out the colors are, in conjunction with the fact that one soldier (presumably the commander) using the term 'infrared' to transfer the video I believe this video is older than 2016. They may not have been using IR per se to transfer files, but that must have been a recent enough thing that they were still using that terminology to refer to local file transfer methods.
Also, if we assume the audio is authentic the fact that they didn't want this to leak points to a professional army since they know they will be in trouble for breaching the rules if it becomes public, does point to the Turkish military.
Now, can it be a propaganda video by a Kurdish militia, in which they execute their own, have their own people dress up as Turkish soldiers and have them speak Turkish(which a lot of PKK militants do speak fluently), but this seems like such a stretch of imagination.
Unfortunately, my assessment would not be 'roughly even chance' but 'likely'.
If the earliest instance of the video is earlier than the 24th of August 2016, it might well be (1) members of Al-Nusra Front that was fighting against the Kurds, using random Turkish weapons and helmets, or (2) Turkish volunteers in Al-Nusra Front... I mention Al-Nusra Front because it was the most likely recipient of Turkish military aid.
I'd say it's 50/50. too. While the Turks are indeed very professional, when it comes to the Kurds it tends to get a bit personal. Had I just captured two enemy combatants who had killed my comrades would I treat them according to the rules of war? I certainly hope so although I've never been in that situation. Would I still feel that way after maybe months of combat? My point is it's not my place to judge. My personal opinion is that what we saw was a war crime. The manner and the gender all add to the emotion of our reaction but should we judge an entire nationality by the actions of possibly a half dozen of the people? Turks are tough soldiers; we found that out in WW1 fighting them and again in Korea fighting alongside them. That toughness has to be reflected to some degree in societal norms. Can you have really, really nice people who are tough as old boots, too? Discuss.
I disagree. We should absolutely judge. If we don't, then we tell the world that this conduct is OK. If you tell your friends in your army that this is OK, they are more likely to commit crimes. In this case, we don't know the perpetrators but we can still judge the actions. I think most soldiers of western countries would not murder prisoners / civilians but every society has some bad eggs. Don't let actions like these get a free pass.
Fair comment. When I said it's not up to me to judge I meant it is not my place to judge them (I'm not a judge in the legal sense) but I do have every right to hold an opinion on their actions. And I stated it: 'what we saw was a war crime.' It is wrong. Period. I'd like to think most of our troops would behave appropriately too but we know transgressors are amongst us. When I was a 16 year old Army Apprentice I suffered under the culture of 'bastardization' that existed and has been the subject of a Royal Commission. I even won a compensation payout because the culture was allowed to exist by the DS where the senior class bruted on the junior class in terrible ways. When I became a senior and an Apprentice Corporal n charge of a hut of seniors and juniors I made it clear none of what happened to us the previous year would happen in our hut. One of my best mates whom I thought I knew well said to me; "but Perry, it's our turn now!" He wasn't allowed in our hut. That's how these things perpetuate and even the most decent of people can be corrupted. So I won't judge the man but I will judge the action.
The Kurdish Women's Protection Units (YPJ) has been around since 2013. They made the Western news during the Yazidi genocide into North Iraq when Kurdish forces (including the YPJ) fought against the Islamic State (ISIL) to defend the Yazidi. They are a component of the Syrian Democratic Forces fighting in Syria now.
The YPJ is a outgrowth of the philosophy of Abdullah Öcalan (the founder of the Kurdish Workers Party PKK). He believed in equal rights for women and the YPJ is a latest in a line of armed Kurdish women's units.
One question: Do the Turks wear red patches into combat? South Korean marines - I mean the ROK Marines (they will beat me up if I don't call them by their official name and capitalization) - have red name patches they strut around in, but my understanding is that they take them off when in combat.
I would expect the Turks to take off any red patches in combat.
Is the Kurdish population so low that they use females in their militias as matter of necessity to boost their ranks or is there simply no cultural taboo in their society for such service from women?
Also, given that many majority Muslim nations seem to adopt the tenants of Islam as their civil law, is there a cultural or religious disdain for women to take up arms? Women in combat roles is a somewhat touchy issue and varies greatly from nation-to-nation it seems.
In Kurdish culture, there is no taboo against women serving in the armed forces. One reason for the presence of all-female units is the belief held by ISIS and similar groups, which follow a distorted interpretation of Islam, that being killed by a woman is a disgrace and prevents one from achieving martyrdom. This belief contributed to the fear of these groups towards the all-female YPG units and explains why these terrorist groups avoided capturing female YPG combatants.
Kurds did it out of necessity but in the last 20-30 years there has been genuine change towards gender equality amongst mainstream Kurdish society. But you can't say "Kurdish Culture" and make an all encompassing generalization. There is a Kurdish party(Hudapar) which has been founded by the founders of Turkish Hezbollah. They are currently allied with the government, an alliance which includes extreme-right National Movement Party. There is a considerable size of ultra-religious conservative Kurds that will ally with anyone to further their Islamic agenda.
Turkish military has always had female officers starting from the earliest days of the republic. The first female combat aviator was Turkish if I am not mistaken (Sabiha Gokcen). It was an exception rather than a common occurrence at the time but presently Turkey has a sizable female population of female military personnel, including a general and an admiral.
A Turkish G3 would fire an old NATO round - 7.62 x 51. When I shot them long ago in the German Army, they "Battle Rifle Rounds" have a lot of power. The left Lady was shot point-blank in the back of her head multiple times. I wonder if this clip was real ... would she still have a head? Also, there is not much blood and ... "matter" on the rock before here. I am not an expert, but I would assume a real execution would be a lot messier. If I am wrong - my apologies and sympathies to real victims.
In my opinion so long as the muzzle is back far enough to avoid a gas jet entering the wound the bullet will pass through without turning or expanding. For example hunters using 7.62 military ball will watch an animal run away to die later.
Aside from this, there is no excuse for execution of POW unless for example they committed atrocities.
Thank you for making this video Ryan, actually I was thinking how useful it would be if you analyzed this video just a few days ago.
Being Turkish myself, I would like understand what's happening in my country with rational analysis.
For additional context I saw this video years ago and there was audio also. The soldiers were speaking in Turkish and their movement seemed to match the speech. However, it was too low quality to make sure if the lips actually synced up.
In the audio portion of the video I remember one saying 'only send this video through infrared to each other, and don't share it anywhere else'.
Judging by the framerate (although the compression as well as some sort of frame generation to enhance the video may have occurred during upload/reupload process) and how washed out the colors are, in conjunction with the fact that one soldier (presumably the commander) using the term 'infrared' to transfer the video I believe this video is older than 2016. They may not have been using IR per se to transfer files, but that must have been a recent enough thing that they were still using that terminology to refer to local file transfer methods.
Also, if we assume the audio is authentic the fact that they didn't want this to leak points to a professional army since they know they will be in trouble for breaching the rules if it becomes public, does point to the Turkish military.
Now, can it be a propaganda video by a Kurdish militia, in which they execute their own, have their own people dress up as Turkish soldiers and have them speak Turkish(which a lot of PKK militants do speak fluently), but this seems like such a stretch of imagination.
Unfortunately, my assessment would not be 'roughly even chance' but 'likely'.
If the earliest instance of the video is earlier than the 24th of August 2016, it might well be (1) members of Al-Nusra Front that was fighting against the Kurds, using random Turkish weapons and helmets, or (2) Turkish volunteers in Al-Nusra Front... I mention Al-Nusra Front because it was the most likely recipient of Turkish military aid.
Could be.
I couldn't find the version with the audio. I would be able to translate and provide some cultural context if someone can send me a link.
It didn't sound like what Al-Nusra volunteers would sound like, but I would like to re-listen to it again before I can make a solid argument.
Someone sent me a longer video, but it doesn’t have sound
https://watchpeopledie.tv/h/execution/post/2239/turkish-soldiers-execute-two-female-kurdish?sort=new
I'll see if I can find it.
I'd say it's 50/50. too. While the Turks are indeed very professional, when it comes to the Kurds it tends to get a bit personal. Had I just captured two enemy combatants who had killed my comrades would I treat them according to the rules of war? I certainly hope so although I've never been in that situation. Would I still feel that way after maybe months of combat? My point is it's not my place to judge. My personal opinion is that what we saw was a war crime. The manner and the gender all add to the emotion of our reaction but should we judge an entire nationality by the actions of possibly a half dozen of the people? Turks are tough soldiers; we found that out in WW1 fighting them and again in Korea fighting alongside them. That toughness has to be reflected to some degree in societal norms. Can you have really, really nice people who are tough as old boots, too? Discuss.
I disagree. We should absolutely judge. If we don't, then we tell the world that this conduct is OK. If you tell your friends in your army that this is OK, they are more likely to commit crimes. In this case, we don't know the perpetrators but we can still judge the actions. I think most soldiers of western countries would not murder prisoners / civilians but every society has some bad eggs. Don't let actions like these get a free pass.
Fair comment. When I said it's not up to me to judge I meant it is not my place to judge them (I'm not a judge in the legal sense) but I do have every right to hold an opinion on their actions. And I stated it: 'what we saw was a war crime.' It is wrong. Period. I'd like to think most of our troops would behave appropriately too but we know transgressors are amongst us. When I was a 16 year old Army Apprentice I suffered under the culture of 'bastardization' that existed and has been the subject of a Royal Commission. I even won a compensation payout because the culture was allowed to exist by the DS where the senior class bruted on the junior class in terrible ways. When I became a senior and an Apprentice Corporal n charge of a hut of seniors and juniors I made it clear none of what happened to us the previous year would happen in our hut. One of my best mates whom I thought I knew well said to me; "but Perry, it's our turn now!" He wasn't allowed in our hut. That's how these things perpetuate and even the most decent of people can be corrupted. So I won't judge the man but I will judge the action.
The Kurdish Women's Protection Units (YPJ) has been around since 2013. They made the Western news during the Yazidi genocide into North Iraq when Kurdish forces (including the YPJ) fought against the Islamic State (ISIL) to defend the Yazidi. They are a component of the Syrian Democratic Forces fighting in Syria now.
The YPJ is a outgrowth of the philosophy of Abdullah Öcalan (the founder of the Kurdish Workers Party PKK). He believed in equal rights for women and the YPJ is a latest in a line of armed Kurdish women's units.
They are extraordinary in the Muslim world.
Thanks for the video and excellent analysis Ryan!
One question: Do the Turks wear red patches into combat? South Korean marines - I mean the ROK Marines (they will beat me up if I don't call them by their official name and capitalization) - have red name patches they strut around in, but my understanding is that they take them off when in combat.
I would expect the Turks to take off any red patches in combat.
As far as I recall CETME mags will fit into a G3.
I can confirm that they will fit. I have an HK91 (civilian G3) and also have some CETME mags and they fit and function in the G3.
a well balanced review , thanks.
Is the Kurdish population so low that they use females in their militias as matter of necessity to boost their ranks or is there simply no cultural taboo in their society for such service from women?
Also, given that many majority Muslim nations seem to adopt the tenants of Islam as their civil law, is there a cultural or religious disdain for women to take up arms? Women in combat roles is a somewhat touchy issue and varies greatly from nation-to-nation it seems.
In Kurdish culture, there is no taboo against women serving in the armed forces. One reason for the presence of all-female units is the belief held by ISIS and similar groups, which follow a distorted interpretation of Islam, that being killed by a woman is a disgrace and prevents one from achieving martyrdom. This belief contributed to the fear of these groups towards the all-female YPG units and explains why these terrorist groups avoided capturing female YPG combatants.
Not sure if it also applies to Turks.
Kurds did it out of necessity but in the last 20-30 years there has been genuine change towards gender equality amongst mainstream Kurdish society. But you can't say "Kurdish Culture" and make an all encompassing generalization. There is a Kurdish party(Hudapar) which has been founded by the founders of Turkish Hezbollah. They are currently allied with the government, an alliance which includes extreme-right National Movement Party. There is a considerable size of ultra-religious conservative Kurds that will ally with anyone to further their Islamic agenda.
Turkish military has always had female officers starting from the earliest days of the republic. The first female combat aviator was Turkish if I am not mistaken (Sabiha Gokcen). It was an exception rather than a common occurrence at the time but presently Turkey has a sizable female population of female military personnel, including a general and an admiral.
Could it not be ISIS? Did no Turkish helmets end up in their possession?
The Turks are butchers.
Ryan, I noticed you're wearing the star of david! It's beautiful. Are you Jewish or just a fan?
A Turkish G3 would fire an old NATO round - 7.62 x 51. When I shot them long ago in the German Army, they "Battle Rifle Rounds" have a lot of power. The left Lady was shot point-blank in the back of her head multiple times. I wonder if this clip was real ... would she still have a head? Also, there is not much blood and ... "matter" on the rock before here. I am not an expert, but I would assume a real execution would be a lot messier. If I am wrong - my apologies and sympathies to real victims.
In my opinion so long as the muzzle is back far enough to avoid a gas jet entering the wound the bullet will pass through without turning or expanding. For example hunters using 7.62 military ball will watch an animal run away to die later.
Aside from this, there is no excuse for execution of POW unless for example they committed atrocities.