I came here to say this. The dude tapped his head and didn't even flinch. He put his head down and accepted it. I think he was in total misery and knew he wasn't going to get help.
That is the exact thing I was going to suggest. He knew he was a goner and didn't want to suffer. What a horrible thing to have to do, request your own death to prevent more suffering.
What gets me he he didn't look at his wounds, penis or stomach. Maybe you decide as a group you can't rescue any more because of the Drones, there always seems to be 3 up at all times.
He did check himself out, you can see him look before he taps his head. I think if you just had your todger torn off you'd have a fair idea it had happened.
I suspect that the wounded man was asking to be put out of his misery: as the shooter was walking up, you can see the wounded soldier tapping his temple, then curling up into the fetal position just before he was shot. He may have known that he had a mortal wound or known that, due to the lack of casevac, the wound would have made it fatal anyway.
I agree that this also shows the effect of culture and the Russian logistics. In an army that clearly sees soldiers as meat meant to overwhelm the enemy, a wounded man at the point of contact as a liability and not someone to be saved.
"If you come from a culture of misery and suffering..." was the most insightful phrase for me, Ryan. No matter who is in power, Americans hold that "things can be better", e.g. "I'm going to survive this, I will go home, I will live." Freedom doesn't necessarily make "good soldiers" in the same way that brutality and totalitarianism makes easy it to assemble an army, But freedom does give a soldier a reason to fight--optimism that, regardless of how sh!tty things are now, I'm doing this to secure or improve my life and the lives of those I love.
But from the Russian soldiers POV, "I am poorly trained, brutalized in preparation for an despot's war of his ego, poorly equipped, and poorly provisioned and will go home an emasculated man to an equally poorly provisioned society from which I cannot escape: Well, F&uck It All.
It wasn't always that way. After the fall of the union, Russians we almost giddy with hope and optimism. The oligarchal system of oppression known as Putinism killed that. And we won't see peace in Ukraine for as long as Putin is alive and in power.
As someone who left Russia in early 1992, i.e. just after the collapse of USSR, I can tell you that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around. I decided never to return at that time, it was clear to me that the main part of the huge security apparatus of the state was left intact, and they decided to go with Yeltsin as a way to get even more privileged and unchecked than in USSR times. That's the West that was giddy with the sense of the won Cold War - unfortunately the West didn't pay attention. :-(
Dima; My experience was of a number of budding entrepreneurs who welcomed what they perceived as new opportunities largely devoid of historical restrictions. And, it was in the early weeks, so things changed. My exposure was hardly extensive.
You are right about the West ignoring things. We blew an opportunity to respond with a post-Cold War Marshall plan assuring that now pretty much back to the way things were and in many respects, worse off: Ryan notes we are already fighting WWIII.
entrepreneurs/crooks already started in the late USSR years (Berezovsky and Khodorkovsy among them) - and they were 1st rate cynics who exploited the falling apart system for personal gain. They obviously got excited - but already then it was obvious that they needed support of corrupt security and law enforcement establishment.
Come on. It's well-documented how Western firms helped RF to rebuild its arms manufacturing, army training facilities, etc. And this went on after 2008 Georgia invasion and after 2014 Ukraine invasion.
And of course NordStream etc.
The only attention paid was how to make quick money, and think about the consequences later.
C) What exactly are the effects of what you are talking about, and how should the west have done things differently that wouldn't have resulted IN THE COLLAPSE OF A NUCLEAR WEAPONS owning state?
Honestly, keeping Russia's nukes in their holes after the collapse of the USSR was a masterstroke in political and economic maneuvering. You seem to think it was a forgone conclusion.
C) two words: Budapest Memorandum. There were more nukes-owning states, which the West disarmed, and it's only matter of time RF started to claw its "Russian territories" back, one way or another.
The West totally misunderstood the imperial nature of RF. Or perhaps chose to pretend that RF is not a continuation of USSR and Russian Empire by other means - despite the aggression against Georgia and parts wanting to break away (Chechenya).
It was not a masterstroke - to the contrary, the de facto rulers of RF played the West masterfully to remain in power, and preserve the empire.
If we are having the discussion in this language, your source should root to something in this language. Your page, which is a list of links to twitter posts and such, is not rooting to information in the language we are using.
it's mind-boggling how RF depended and still depends on the West in most high-tech. Civil aviation uses mostly Western planes. Then: computers, software, microchips.
And, importantly - precision machining tools. Guns, rockets, and ammunition which blast Ukraine now are made with these tools, which RF cannot make itself. They were imported en masse since early 2000s, and put to work.
I can see Putin bringing Korea into the Kremlin, advertised by the fawning expression on his face while saying goodbye at the NK airport. His game won't end until he does. Then the next disaster will play out with NK playing a strong control role in the Russia of the future.
I absolutely agree with your take on optimism versus "eff it, may as well die" - the sadder, more complex political side, I have some nitpicks, but still mostly agree.
Per Timothy Snyder (awesome Academic of Ukraine and Russia), I think Putin even started off an optimist and after a while saw that it wasn't going to work, and settled on an oligarchy as the "best bad idea" - and after you co.promise like that for 20 years, you become a despot. C'est la vie. :-/
Not just the type of wound but the harsh reality is he was going to bleed out. Any attempt at medical evac is likely to just going to result in a double tap.
This is an ugly war.
Also, I thought that the US / Western doctrine was still to "eliminate the threat' before attempting a rescue. But in this situationn, they have no counter to drones such as EW and no backup. US / Western armies have enjoyed huge advantages in being able to bring fire and brimstome to hot spots to get their wounded guys back in most circumstances, except certain spec ops missions. So I wouldn't put it past US / Western troops to behave the same way if circumstances were to change.
Also there's another aspect to this - by having the other soldier finish him he is not committing suicide which is against many religions and cultural norms.
It looks to me like he gestured to his head in such a manner as say, put one right here. I think he asked for and I think I agree he got his manhood blown off or he knew he wasn’t gonna make it. Maybe hit the pelvic cage and femoral artery who knows.
Agree. Miséricorde. I wouldn't be eager to do it to my buddy, but if there's no chance of help, I think if he's asking for a quick end rather than suffering, I'd grant it.
Shooting your buddy might not be part of their training, but committing suicide is. It's FAR too pervasive not to be. There is no medivac for Russians in most places.
So why do I think suicide is part of the training?
1. Because like I said it's too pervasive.
2. It is well documented that Russians have poor/no medivac.
3. The methods used. This is very interesting. If possible a Russian will place a grenade inside their vest. This is a can't miss method. Aiming a rifle at your head while you are bleeding out isn't easy. Sadly there are videos where Russians kinda just made it worse with the rifle. The method of using a grenade probably isn't the first thing anyone would think of. The gun is the first thing.
So, these three things lead me to think that this is training. I don't mean Russian Infantry Handbook page 324. I mean real world training. Remember in the movie A Few Good Men when Tom Cruise asks the grunt to point to the place in the training manual that says when and where chow is served? The point is made in the movie that not all training is official training.
Finally, there is also a video from about 2 month ago of a Russian commander telling his troops that they will all die. All of them. But that they will die heroes.
Russia has Telegram. The vast majority of Russians know full well what they are getting into. Russia also has rampant poverty. So... maybe make 10 times your normal yearly salary. Maybe you die.
"So... maybe make 10 times your normal yearly salary. Maybe you die." I think people underestimate how bad the average Russian soldier is living before joining the military. I kind of have to put myself in a Warhammer 40k mindset honestly. Life is beyond bleak.
"Better die than get taken prisoner" is what one Russian PoW after the other tell in their interviews. It's getting drilled into them. There are dozens of Ukrainian drone footages around showing them killing themselves after being hit.
You may check e.g. twitter's @666_mancer stream for these (very graphic I must say)
The Russians had a little survival memo they passed out around Bhakmut. It literally had whatever you do don’t surrender because…. And also real genuine survival tips in it. Like an infantry handbook for the Z troops like the old school book summary texts. One that stood out was not to stop for casualties, put a frag under your friends bodies, etc. don’t take prisoners lots of Khan type stuff.
I’ve seen 4 or 5 Russ on Russ kill vids during the course of the war. Prisoners mention it frequently. Seen waaay too many murders on there side even back to the start. I have seen far more suicides, die in place, even one literal beating the guy to death then dismembering him while buddies held him spread eagled (Wagner Bhakmut), Russ on Russ rape or similar physical abuse. This is a brutal war, Russian commanders don’t care in general, the guys that did and lead from the front died. The lead from the front mentality is also a Ukrainian thing going back to the Cossacks. Something that the west has really tried to stop. I get more from the numerous reports of nowhere Russian commanders than I do from shoes. Yes this guy could be poorly equipped but they also might have been bugging out from a forward blind doge or something. There were some interesting cultural comparisons that come to mind but in short many units in the Russian military are brutal, their a culture of a false shared identity glorifying war brutality, and frankly killing your own food for most of your life makes taking a life just another day. Add a ww1 type war with modern tech and you get this but it’s a feature of all Russian war. When the first entered Ukraine in 2014 they disappeared a lot of people, when you have a Mobil crematoria rolling with your logistics it sets the theme well.
Again, I wasn't there or involved and therefore I'm missing important information...
Hence anything I say is purely speculative...
I noticed myself that the last man who did the shooing was casually walking through the entire video... As if he felt no sense of urgency... Whether that was due to being far too experienced in these situations or just wasn't very aware of what was happening is debatable...
What I saw when he was moving his arm didn't appear to me to be pointing at his head so much as simply shaking, either in reaction to his wound/pain or fear of what he expected his comrade was going to do... But I could easily be wrong...
Yes! His footwear was interesting, but it felt a bit calloused to say that was more interesting than being killed by his comrade outright... However I'm not admonishing Ryan for that... Simply pointing out how much we may be becoming callous to that sort of thing...
Having said that, it's been apparent for a while now that Russia was not only unprepared for this Conflict they started, but ill equipped for it period...
First, the reminder that people who have never been in the military (let alone in actual combat) will have a harder time parsing something like this hits home with me. The view from a comfortable warm chair is radically different than it was for these guys running across a battlefield worrying about getting hit by a drone, (which they were). So I really don’t have much useful opinion to add, beyond agreeing that it looks like the wounded guy was asking to be shot. I was surprised he was still alive after what seemed to be a pretty big explosion. That the shooter didn’t pause or say good bye or whatever seemed pretty cold hearted, but he was also trying to keep moving to keep from being the next one down. I also noticed the middle guy dodges to the left right just before the drone explodes, as if he heard it at the last second. But shooting your buddy while trotting on by suggests guys living pretty close to the edge, pretty acclimated to death in combat.
Could be but this war is hard to categorize in general. Ive seen almost every situation as true atleast once. Militia filled with hardened fighters, criminals pushed as meat probes, priests with PKMs, a Ukrainian order of militant monks, at least one Russia eating a dead comrade, “hardened” westerners running and geeks who’ve shot 30 rounds in their lives, with fat bellies and sneakers going out as heroes. So without more data it’s hard to know. I’ve seen guys I. Shower shoes because it was hot and they didn’t care about consequences of a surprise attack. Huge armies lots of variation, but one consistent thing is Russian brutality.
That video says so much about the Russian mindset, the effects of combat on men, the fatalism that can develop when faced with constant lethal danger. The thing about the victim that struck me was how quickly he made the decision to die. I agree he probably lost his genitals and quite possibly he, and his mates, may have already decided if that happens they don't want to go home.
The nonchalance of his comrade is what really made an impression on me. As Ryan points out, he doesn't rush to his aid. He doesn't hesitate in shooting and he seems unperturbed as he walks away, barely looking back once over his shoulder. You look back more often after parking your car.
To me a telling thing is that he points at his head where as far as I can tell is where he is shot
I came here to say this. The dude tapped his head and didn't even flinch. He put his head down and accepted it. I think he was in total misery and knew he wasn't going to get help.
That is the exact thing I was going to suggest. He knew he was a goner and didn't want to suffer. What a horrible thing to have to do, request your own death to prevent more suffering.
Yup! I'm surprised this wasn't discussed in the video Ryan made.
that ist also my interpretation.
It’s what you do when hope is completely absent from your life experience.
That and the fact that when the rifle is pointed directly in his face, he makes no motion to tell the other guy to stop
There is something strange to me that Ryan skipped the obvious actions by the wounded soldier and focused so much on his shoes.
He knew, just didn't want to focus on the bad straights the Russians are in.
I think he might not have noticed the guy's actions?
He did mention the tapping and I am certain he would not have missed any details. He is a professional and goes over these clips frame by frame.
What gets me he he didn't look at his wounds, penis or stomach. Maybe you decide as a group you can't rescue any more because of the Drones, there always seems to be 3 up at all times.
He did check himself out, you can see him look before he taps his head. I think if you just had your todger torn off you'd have a fair idea it had happened.
I meant the guy doing the shooting, but you're right. I can't see what the shooter saw. Man it was quick
I suspect that the wounded man was asking to be put out of his misery: as the shooter was walking up, you can see the wounded soldier tapping his temple, then curling up into the fetal position just before he was shot. He may have known that he had a mortal wound or known that, due to the lack of casevac, the wound would have made it fatal anyway.
I agree that this also shows the effect of culture and the Russian logistics. In an army that clearly sees soldiers as meat meant to overwhelm the enemy, a wounded man at the point of contact as a liability and not someone to be saved.
Sad seeing a soldier die, no matter what side they are on.
Yet the people who start the wars are hardly ever held accountable. If only there was a drone with Putin’s balls in its sight.
"If you come from a culture of misery and suffering..." was the most insightful phrase for me, Ryan. No matter who is in power, Americans hold that "things can be better", e.g. "I'm going to survive this, I will go home, I will live." Freedom doesn't necessarily make "good soldiers" in the same way that brutality and totalitarianism makes easy it to assemble an army, But freedom does give a soldier a reason to fight--optimism that, regardless of how sh!tty things are now, I'm doing this to secure or improve my life and the lives of those I love.
But from the Russian soldiers POV, "I am poorly trained, brutalized in preparation for an despot's war of his ego, poorly equipped, and poorly provisioned and will go home an emasculated man to an equally poorly provisioned society from which I cannot escape: Well, F&uck It All.
It wasn't always that way. After the fall of the union, Russians we almost giddy with hope and optimism. The oligarchal system of oppression known as Putinism killed that. And we won't see peace in Ukraine for as long as Putin is alive and in power.
As someone who left Russia in early 1992, i.e. just after the collapse of USSR, I can tell you that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around. I decided never to return at that time, it was clear to me that the main part of the huge security apparatus of the state was left intact, and they decided to go with Yeltsin as a way to get even more privileged and unchecked than in USSR times. That's the West that was giddy with the sense of the won Cold War - unfortunately the West didn't pay attention. :-(
Dima; My experience was of a number of budding entrepreneurs who welcomed what they perceived as new opportunities largely devoid of historical restrictions. And, it was in the early weeks, so things changed. My exposure was hardly extensive.
You are right about the West ignoring things. We blew an opportunity to respond with a post-Cold War Marshall plan assuring that now pretty much back to the way things were and in many respects, worse off: Ryan notes we are already fighting WWIII.
entrepreneurs/crooks already started in the late USSR years (Berezovsky and Khodorkovsy among them) - and they were 1st rate cynics who exploited the falling apart system for personal gain. They obviously got excited - but already then it was obvious that they needed support of corrupt security and law enforcement establishment.
'The West' paid plenty of attention. There was literally nothing we could do about it.
Come on. It's well-documented how Western firms helped RF to rebuild its arms manufacturing, army training facilities, etc. And this went on after 2008 Georgia invasion and after 2014 Ukraine invasion.
And of course NordStream etc.
The only attention paid was how to make quick money, and think about the consequences later.
A) Source?
B) What does 2008 and 2014 have to do with 1992?
C) What exactly are the effects of what you are talking about, and how should the west have done things differently that wouldn't have resulted IN THE COLLAPSE OF A NUCLEAR WEAPONS owning state?
Honestly, keeping Russia's nukes in their holes after the collapse of the USSR was a masterstroke in political and economic maneuvering. You seem to think it was a forgone conclusion.
A) - I recommend https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1792176953769746585.html and many other posts by Kamil Galeev
B) - one thing left to another
C) two words: Budapest Memorandum. There were more nukes-owning states, which the West disarmed, and it's only matter of time RF started to claw its "Russian territories" back, one way or another.
The West totally misunderstood the imperial nature of RF. Or perhaps chose to pretend that RF is not a continuation of USSR and Russian Empire by other means - despite the aggression against Georgia and parts wanting to break away (Chechenya).
It was not a masterstroke - to the contrary, the de facto rulers of RF played the West masterfully to remain in power, and preserve the empire.
If we are having the discussion in this language, your source should root to something in this language. Your page, which is a list of links to twitter posts and such, is not rooting to information in the language we are using.
it's mind-boggling how RF depended and still depends on the West in most high-tech. Civil aviation uses mostly Western planes. Then: computers, software, microchips.
And, importantly - precision machining tools. Guns, rockets, and ammunition which blast Ukraine now are made with these tools, which RF cannot make itself. They were imported en masse since early 2000s, and put to work.
I can see Putin bringing Korea into the Kremlin, advertised by the fawning expression on his face while saying goodbye at the NK airport. His game won't end until he does. Then the next disaster will play out with NK playing a strong control role in the Russia of the future.
I absolutely agree with your take on optimism versus "eff it, may as well die" - the sadder, more complex political side, I have some nitpicks, but still mostly agree.
Per Timothy Snyder (awesome Academic of Ukraine and Russia), I think Putin even started off an optimist and after a while saw that it wasn't going to work, and settled on an oligarchy as the "best bad idea" - and after you co.promise like that for 20 years, you become a despot. C'est la vie. :-/
Did he ask to be shot? He taps his temple several times and then lies still, turning his eyes to the ground.
Not just the type of wound but the harsh reality is he was going to bleed out. Any attempt at medical evac is likely to just going to result in a double tap.
This is an ugly war.
Also, I thought that the US / Western doctrine was still to "eliminate the threat' before attempting a rescue. But in this situationn, they have no counter to drones such as EW and no backup. US / Western armies have enjoyed huge advantages in being able to bring fire and brimstome to hot spots to get their wounded guys back in most circumstances, except certain spec ops missions. So I wouldn't put it past US / Western troops to behave the same way if circumstances were to change.
Also there's another aspect to this - by having the other soldier finish him he is not committing suicide which is against many religions and cultural norms.
It looks to me like he gestured to his head in such a manner as say, put one right here. I think he asked for and I think I agree he got his manhood blown off or he knew he wasn’t gonna make it. Maybe hit the pelvic cage and femoral artery who knows.
He seems to have smoke emitting from his chest as well. I think he knew he was a goner and asked his comrade to speed up the process for him.
Agree. Miséricorde. I wouldn't be eager to do it to my buddy, but if there's no chance of help, I think if he's asking for a quick end rather than suffering, I'd grant it.
Shooting your buddy might not be part of their training, but committing suicide is. It's FAR too pervasive not to be. There is no medivac for Russians in most places.
So why do I think suicide is part of the training?
1. Because like I said it's too pervasive.
2. It is well documented that Russians have poor/no medivac.
3. The methods used. This is very interesting. If possible a Russian will place a grenade inside their vest. This is a can't miss method. Aiming a rifle at your head while you are bleeding out isn't easy. Sadly there are videos where Russians kinda just made it worse with the rifle. The method of using a grenade probably isn't the first thing anyone would think of. The gun is the first thing.
So, these three things lead me to think that this is training. I don't mean Russian Infantry Handbook page 324. I mean real world training. Remember in the movie A Few Good Men when Tom Cruise asks the grunt to point to the place in the training manual that says when and where chow is served? The point is made in the movie that not all training is official training.
Finally, there is also a video from about 2 month ago of a Russian commander telling his troops that they will all die. All of them. But that they will die heroes.
Russia has Telegram. The vast majority of Russians know full well what they are getting into. Russia also has rampant poverty. So... maybe make 10 times your normal yearly salary. Maybe you die.
"So... maybe make 10 times your normal yearly salary. Maybe you die." I think people underestimate how bad the average Russian soldier is living before joining the military. I kind of have to put myself in a Warhammer 40k mindset honestly. Life is beyond bleak.
"Better die than get taken prisoner" is what one Russian PoW after the other tell in their interviews. It's getting drilled into them. There are dozens of Ukrainian drone footages around showing them killing themselves after being hit.
You may check e.g. twitter's @666_mancer stream for these (very graphic I must say)
The Russians had a little survival memo they passed out around Bhakmut. It literally had whatever you do don’t surrender because…. And also real genuine survival tips in it. Like an infantry handbook for the Z troops like the old school book summary texts. One that stood out was not to stop for casualties, put a frag under your friends bodies, etc. don’t take prisoners lots of Khan type stuff.
Can't believe they're still rushing into the meat grinder for over 2 years.
I’ve seen 4 or 5 Russ on Russ kill vids during the course of the war. Prisoners mention it frequently. Seen waaay too many murders on there side even back to the start. I have seen far more suicides, die in place, even one literal beating the guy to death then dismembering him while buddies held him spread eagled (Wagner Bhakmut), Russ on Russ rape or similar physical abuse. This is a brutal war, Russian commanders don’t care in general, the guys that did and lead from the front died. The lead from the front mentality is also a Ukrainian thing going back to the Cossacks. Something that the west has really tried to stop. I get more from the numerous reports of nowhere Russian commanders than I do from shoes. Yes this guy could be poorly equipped but they also might have been bugging out from a forward blind doge or something. There were some interesting cultural comparisons that come to mind but in short many units in the Russian military are brutal, their a culture of a false shared identity glorifying war brutality, and frankly killing your own food for most of your life makes taking a life just another day. Add a ww1 type war with modern tech and you get this but it’s a feature of all Russian war. When the first entered Ukraine in 2014 they disappeared a lot of people, when you have a Mobil crematoria rolling with your logistics it sets the theme well.
I believe he asked to be euthanized. Losing your manhood doesn’t leave a guy much to live for.
Again, I wasn't there or involved and therefore I'm missing important information...
Hence anything I say is purely speculative...
I noticed myself that the last man who did the shooing was casually walking through the entire video... As if he felt no sense of urgency... Whether that was due to being far too experienced in these situations or just wasn't very aware of what was happening is debatable...
What I saw when he was moving his arm didn't appear to me to be pointing at his head so much as simply shaking, either in reaction to his wound/pain or fear of what he expected his comrade was going to do... But I could easily be wrong...
Yes! His footwear was interesting, but it felt a bit calloused to say that was more interesting than being killed by his comrade outright... However I'm not admonishing Ryan for that... Simply pointing out how much we may be becoming callous to that sort of thing...
Having said that, it's been apparent for a while now that Russia was not only unprepared for this Conflict they started, but ill equipped for it period...
First, the reminder that people who have never been in the military (let alone in actual combat) will have a harder time parsing something like this hits home with me. The view from a comfortable warm chair is radically different than it was for these guys running across a battlefield worrying about getting hit by a drone, (which they were). So I really don’t have much useful opinion to add, beyond agreeing that it looks like the wounded guy was asking to be shot. I was surprised he was still alive after what seemed to be a pretty big explosion. That the shooter didn’t pause or say good bye or whatever seemed pretty cold hearted, but he was also trying to keep moving to keep from being the next one down. I also noticed the middle guy dodges to the left right just before the drone explodes, as if he heard it at the last second. But shooting your buddy while trotting on by suggests guys living pretty close to the edge, pretty acclimated to death in combat.
Could this have been one of the prison draftees? He didn't have full kit or Even a weapon. Maybe fresh on the line and still considered a liability.
Could be but this war is hard to categorize in general. Ive seen almost every situation as true atleast once. Militia filled with hardened fighters, criminals pushed as meat probes, priests with PKMs, a Ukrainian order of militant monks, at least one Russia eating a dead comrade, “hardened” westerners running and geeks who’ve shot 30 rounds in their lives, with fat bellies and sneakers going out as heroes. So without more data it’s hard to know. I’ve seen guys I. Shower shoes because it was hot and they didn’t care about consequences of a surprise attack. Huge armies lots of variation, but one consistent thing is Russian brutality.
That video says so much about the Russian mindset, the effects of combat on men, the fatalism that can develop when faced with constant lethal danger. The thing about the victim that struck me was how quickly he made the decision to die. I agree he probably lost his genitals and quite possibly he, and his mates, may have already decided if that happens they don't want to go home.
The nonchalance of his comrade is what really made an impression on me. As Ryan points out, he doesn't rush to his aid. He doesn't hesitate in shooting and he seems unperturbed as he walks away, barely looking back once over his shoulder. You look back more often after parking your car.