Video will be misinterpreted as more weapons and sensors gain the ability to record for ISR . Here's an easy way to filter out some war crime misinformation.
I think we all have the luxury of sitting on our ass, drinking our morning coffee, and judging what the Ukrainians are doing for the literal survival of their country - and so we have the luxury of being more compassionate or forgiving than otherwise would be. If I'm honest with myself and put myself in their situation, if Russia invaded Charlotte, NC - my home - I'd have dropped that munition too.
If the situation was reversed, I wouldn’t want to attacked for casevac’ing a fellow soldier. Of course, war is all about having my warriors do thing to others that I don’t want happen to them. But this is one of those “minimum standards of behavior” situation. I wouldn’t want anyone to have to live with attacking injured people. It dehumanizes your entire force to the enemy.
The other thought is that the political power in Russia isn’t just trying to subjugate Ukraine (and Belorussia, and all of the European steppe). They also are subjugating Russians. They had to subjugate Russians FIRST and in many ways more gruesomely. The soldiers here might be choosing between agonizing sickness/injury or the safety of their loved ones. Those kids might wonder if some putz up the command sees them in a clinic that they’ll phone the FSB to have his daughter kidnapped and his father sent to prison.
Ultimately, I would err on the side of caution. But, like you said, we don’t know. Maybe the drone operator has been watching these soldiers spend the last six months shelling maternity hospitals and apartment buildings and doesn’t have the same moral ambiguities I have.
You should see some AC-130W and J footage. A layman can never figure that out even with the audio. It appears merciless and unfair, because it is, but it's not a warcrime.
As I understand it, Ukraine loses the war if it runs out of supplies and materials. Therefore, Russia's play is a geopolitical one to disrupt western support. On the flip side, Russia loses the war when it's powerbase has absorbed a critical amount of suffering leading to a Coup d'état. Therefore, Ukraine's play is to deliver as much suffering to the whole of Russia. I believe Ukraine is a signatory to the Geneva Convention so they need to continue demonstrating good faith compliance. All this makes sense from that geopolitical framework.
It’s an opportunity target. 5 enemy combatants in the open within 2 meters of one another. If your job is to take out as many of the enemy as possible, it’s a good target. How’s the saying go? It ain’t a war crime, the first time!
The American interpretation of the LOAC requires our attacking drone operator to determine if the target is hors de combat--out of the fight. In this case, one guy is wounded (not necessarily HDC) and the other four guys are clearly NOT HDC. So we are required to give consideration to protecting the wounded Orc, but we can still engage the other four--even if the stretcher dude is HDC. We simply cannot "target" the HDC stretcher dude.
Where there are people, there will be crime. When there is war, there will be war crimes. Sometimes there are mistakes made in combat too. Ukraine is not exempt from either of those facts. However Russia seems to not give a shit about war crimes or mistakes.
These drone operators are getting better, as are their munitions. 6 months ago, a lot of these drops were missing entirely. Here, there's a perfect drop on a moving target.
As far as the munitions, we've seen a lot of them land 2-5 meters from targets, only to see the target wounded or run away seemingly unscathed. This looks like 3 perfectly healthy soldiers KIA with 1 munition, besides the poor bastard on the stretcher who may be anywhere from "already dead" to "bruised after being dropped on the ground," to "was wounded, now dead."
If there had been other targets about I might have gone with something more immediately threatening. But I think in the context of a defensive war for the survival of your nation against an enemy that has shown little regard for the customs of war? I would probably look at that as a good way to take out 4 non-injured enemy combatants as long as it did not rise to the level of a war crime to do it. Which in this case is does not.
My grandmother worked heavily in the field with the OSS. Most of her activities haven't been declassified yet. She said there were only two things I needed to remember in life, her cabbage rolls recipe, and this. "At home or at war, always remember the three F's. Facts Fight Fear."
Very interesting, it thinks that are not pretty that are allowed in war. I do find it a bit untactful if you ignore the rest of the conflict. If you look at the wider war, since the Russians are not even flowing the rules this are with in them and compactly fine, so the operator is out for revenge within the law. Same as I would be.
Unfortunately the perception that war should clean and "fair" has gained a lot of reaction over the last decade or so. Some of this may come from video game portrayals of warfare that are the most common exposure to "combat" in today's culture. It may also be partly because of the over-zealous application of ROE by the US, and the media trumpeting our military's mea culpas when those ROE were violated. Most of those ROE are driven more by concern about local or international perception than by actual Law of War restrictions. The net effect is this idea that there is some "polite" or inoffensive approach to warfare, which the videos from Ukraine clearly don't replicate.
Who knows how many lives that drone operator saved. Maybe 0 maybe 5 Maybe 10. We will never know but we do know that at least 4 people will no longer be attacking Ukraine.
I think we all have the luxury of sitting on our ass, drinking our morning coffee, and judging what the Ukrainians are doing for the literal survival of their country - and so we have the luxury of being more compassionate or forgiving than otherwise would be. If I'm honest with myself and put myself in their situation, if Russia invaded Charlotte, NC - my home - I'd have dropped that munition too.
Two things come to mind.
If the situation was reversed, I wouldn’t want to attacked for casevac’ing a fellow soldier. Of course, war is all about having my warriors do thing to others that I don’t want happen to them. But this is one of those “minimum standards of behavior” situation. I wouldn’t want anyone to have to live with attacking injured people. It dehumanizes your entire force to the enemy.
The other thought is that the political power in Russia isn’t just trying to subjugate Ukraine (and Belorussia, and all of the European steppe). They also are subjugating Russians. They had to subjugate Russians FIRST and in many ways more gruesomely. The soldiers here might be choosing between agonizing sickness/injury or the safety of their loved ones. Those kids might wonder if some putz up the command sees them in a clinic that they’ll phone the FSB to have his daughter kidnapped and his father sent to prison.
Ultimately, I would err on the side of caution. But, like you said, we don’t know. Maybe the drone operator has been watching these soldiers spend the last six months shelling maternity hospitals and apartment buildings and doesn’t have the same moral ambiguities I have.
They are invaders. They kill, rape, steal our racoons. I’ve never seen RF troops showing compassion. I’d drop it. David Fraser. BTW I am 🇬🇧
You should see some AC-130W and J footage. A layman can never figure that out even with the audio. It appears merciless and unfair, because it is, but it's not a warcrime.
As I understand it, Ukraine loses the war if it runs out of supplies and materials. Therefore, Russia's play is a geopolitical one to disrupt western support. On the flip side, Russia loses the war when it's powerbase has absorbed a critical amount of suffering leading to a Coup d'état. Therefore, Ukraine's play is to deliver as much suffering to the whole of Russia. I believe Ukraine is a signatory to the Geneva Convention so they need to continue demonstrating good faith compliance. All this makes sense from that geopolitical framework.
It’s an opportunity target. 5 enemy combatants in the open within 2 meters of one another. If your job is to take out as many of the enemy as possible, it’s a good target. How’s the saying go? It ain’t a war crime, the first time!
The American interpretation of the LOAC requires our attacking drone operator to determine if the target is hors de combat--out of the fight. In this case, one guy is wounded (not necessarily HDC) and the other four guys are clearly NOT HDC. So we are required to give consideration to protecting the wounded Orc, but we can still engage the other four--even if the stretcher dude is HDC. We simply cannot "target" the HDC stretcher dude.
Bomb the shit outta them.
Where there are people, there will be crime. When there is war, there will be war crimes. Sometimes there are mistakes made in combat too. Ukraine is not exempt from either of those facts. However Russia seems to not give a shit about war crimes or mistakes.
Like the man said, he probably wouldn't have dropped it. I subscribe for his opinion.
These drone operators are getting better, as are their munitions. 6 months ago, a lot of these drops were missing entirely. Here, there's a perfect drop on a moving target.
As far as the munitions, we've seen a lot of them land 2-5 meters from targets, only to see the target wounded or run away seemingly unscathed. This looks like 3 perfectly healthy soldiers KIA with 1 munition, besides the poor bastard on the stretcher who may be anywhere from "already dead" to "bruised after being dropped on the ground," to "was wounded, now dead."
If there had been other targets about I might have gone with something more immediately threatening. But I think in the context of a defensive war for the survival of your nation against an enemy that has shown little regard for the customs of war? I would probably look at that as a good way to take out 4 non-injured enemy combatants as long as it did not rise to the level of a war crime to do it. Which in this case is does not.
My grandmother worked heavily in the field with the OSS. Most of her activities haven't been declassified yet. She said there were only two things I needed to remember in life, her cabbage rolls recipe, and this. "At home or at war, always remember the three F's. Facts Fight Fear."
Very interesting, it thinks that are not pretty that are allowed in war. I do find it a bit untactful if you ignore the rest of the conflict. If you look at the wider war, since the Russians are not even flowing the rules this are with in them and compactly fine, so the operator is out for revenge within the law. Same as I would be.
Unfortunately the perception that war should clean and "fair" has gained a lot of reaction over the last decade or so. Some of this may come from video game portrayals of warfare that are the most common exposure to "combat" in today's culture. It may also be partly because of the over-zealous application of ROE by the US, and the media trumpeting our military's mea culpas when those ROE were violated. Most of those ROE are driven more by concern about local or international perception than by actual Law of War restrictions. The net effect is this idea that there is some "polite" or inoffensive approach to warfare, which the videos from Ukraine clearly don't replicate.
Who knows how many lives that drone operator saved. Maybe 0 maybe 5 Maybe 10. We will never know but we do know that at least 4 people will no longer be attacking Ukraine.
5 less guys trying to kill them. Schwack em.