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Researching Ukraine's avatar

Ryan is right, and also wrong. Where he is right... well... about 70% of everything he said. His points on morality, war fighter reintegration, and more.

Where Ryan is wrong and Stephens if correct is that forever wars can be said to be more destructive on all sides of the conflict than winning quickly. Thus, morally wrong.

Think of this: What if the US obliterated Iraq's military, it's religious fundamentalists, it's warlords, and anyone else able to gather more than a 10 person crowd. Some are dead, some are arrested.

Then, took the low level Baa'thist and allowed them to administrate the country. (Nothing stops a bullet like employment?) The first job is to put kill zones on the borders of Syria and Iran. Stop all travel into Iraq by military age men. Let the neighbors know that we will be attacking extremists in their country also.

Any gatherings of fundamentalists is immediately destroyed. Mosques included. Zero tolerance of militias, fundamentalists, and sayers of ney!

"Shock and Awe" should have lasted a month. Or more. Not a few days.

This would have meant the immediate deaths of thousands of civilians. Meaning... about 10% of what actually died in Iraq. I'm sorry... dying... still today.

Also... it's important to point out that Saddam was killing or disappearing on average about 20k-30k Iraqis himself each year. (Amnesty International numbers.)

How can I morally take this position that would have had the US killing a lot of civilians.

Two things. Short wars are morally superior to long ones. And... John Locke.

Like Locke, I believe that every citizen has a moral duty to create and maintain a government that works and plays well with others. It doesn't matter how hard it is to remove a dictator. The citizenry is ultimately responsible. Individual Russians are responsible for allowing Putin to terrorize their neighbors and of course the Russia citizenry itself. Individual Iraqis were responsible for Saddam.

I am responsible for the shit show in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am responsible for Jake Sullivan not having any foreign policy experience yet forming the US plan for helping Ukraine.

This duty is what gives you power as a citizen. You have agency. Use it. The numbers are always on the side of the citizenry. The US founding fathers new this. It's why the second amendment exists. It's a check valve that allows revolt at a moments notice.

I detest everyone involved in Jan 6. I think they are no better than antifa and radical environmentalists. But there is one "good" thing that came from Jan 6... Our government officials were reminded that revolution is the OTHER check and balance the citizenry has.

The best thing that could have happened to the average Iraq would have been 4 months of absolute hell, then a new government. Without the "Contextual Democracy"... but that's another rant.

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Fred Newton's avatar

Ryan: You didn't counter his argument about end results. You did touch on the consequences of crossing the line and what it means to those who actually have to do it and that's an important point. But I don't think he's making a military point, he's making a political one. You may not mean to do this, but you seem to automatically dismiss a different opinion when the opinion comes from a non veteran. Ask yourself this: Is he wrong that a peace deal now with Hamas or Russia will only postpone the fighting until another time? I don't think he is, especially Hamas.

For anyone who wants to read the article without paywall, I found it here: https://www.indianagazette.com/opinion/bret-stephens-do-we-still-understand-how-wars-are-won/article_84612986-a9ac-5236-9ec1-1b06330d23fa.html

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